Bob

In Dutch we have a saying: he who doesn't dare to ask, already has "no" as an answer

Seriously, great awards you have. Would be nice to see a picture of how you display them or are they safely locked away?

Dear Paul,

many thanks .

This Nakhimov and another Uzhakov Medal (without documents) will be researched rather soon .

My once in a lifetime bargain hadn't been that Nakhimov Medal, but Sgt. Gnitienko's full cavalier of the Glory set of the 1st category, as it turned out after the comprehensive research:

- correct s/n. of the Glory 1cl

- Glory 1cl in an almost 10/10 condition

- excellent, very early & historic important citations of all 3 Glories

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=5536 (citations are at the end of the thread)

I paid in january 1994 EUR 1.380,- for the set .....

Today's market value (dealer's retail price!) of Gnitienko's set might be already beyond USD 20.000,-

Best regards

Christian

Herr Zulus, why not just sell the cavelier group to me for 3.000 Euro then. You make >100% profit and I get a good deal - everybody happy

Let's wait and see where this thread goes then. Hopefully people can post with enthusiasm on orders/medals but with restraint on any political stuff.

I'll do some googling to see what I can find there. It sounds like a fascinating area to dig into a bit deeper.

Intention of this thread is not to start a debate about whether a group is terrorist or liberation movement, right or wrong, etc. but purely to identify which of these non-governmental movements (which may by some be considered terrorists, liberationmovements, freedom fighters, etc.) have or do not have orders/medals and - ideally - to see if some people can post some. I hope the thread can stay focussed on the phalerestic part only, not the politics. There are other forums for that.

What triggered my question was the "free download" JOMSA which contains quite some info on these awards in Middle East. On a different note, it's been a pain for me sofar to try to become a member of OMSA...

Have become interested in expanding my collection beyond just soviet / socialist state orders and medals to also swords. Is there, similar to in the area of ODM, a "short list" of main dealers (ideally also with website containing stock to look at and learn)?

Thanks,

Bob

I'm curious - are there any collectors here of awards given by non-governmental military organizations (I'll leave the terrorist / liberation movement distinction for a different thread) - e.g. RAF, IRA, PLO, FARC, Sendero Luminoso, etc.? Is there any knowledge of this captured anywhere? Do these organizations even provide orders/medals?

Driven a bit by curiosity here from reading a lot on RAF past couple of days.

Thanks

Thank you all. As the initiator of this thread (as well as it's "dead" twin on soviet-awards), I'd appreciate if future posts in this thread focus only on the topic of this thread - i.e. the "Researched Order of Service to the Motherland Group" which has been up for debate for a few days now.

All other topics: either start a different thread OR communicate your thoughts offline (PM, email, etc.) to whomever you want to OR reconsider completely whether they require communicating.

Please (as of now!) no responses anymore to this post or any other post that went "off topic" in this thread.

Thank you,

Bob

PS update: no response to any of my PM's or emails to Mark Signa. No new post by him either despite visits to soviet-awards.com. I understand it's Christmas time but obviously, considering the severity of the topic at hand, with each passing day I am increasingly inclined to draw a definitive conclusion based on the facts / analysis as presented thusfar. I'll contact relevant moderators on soviet-awards.com to ask if they've been informed offline of the dealer supposedly responsible for the first "fabrication".

Nice!

Recently visited the V1/V2 facilities / museum on the north coast of germany... interesting little former east german town.

It was noted that the Germans were already experimenting with submarine launched V2s at end of the war.

Anyway, highly recommended place to visit.

Sad. It looks like the name of the decoration has been removed and replaced.

Yes, judging by the serial number / date, order of red banner of labor would seem possible.

Somebody thought: let's make some more money... and as a result the history will be lost and any reasonably knowledgable collector will not touch this booklet.

Now, this is interesting...

200186531461 on eBay

Here's a scan... we all know ORDER OF SUKHEBATOR #5168 should not exist... at least not in the near future and certainly not in the late 80's.

Update: both of the 2 other parties involved have provided an explanation

http://www.soviet-awards.com/forum/soviet-....html#post72693

Probably this is where this thread should end as people draw their own conclusions.

Update: independent of this thread, triggered by my research request to which I added scans of the doc's I had, Nota Bene has also indicated his belief that the order booklet scan is a fake.

Have tried to contact the person who owned the item in between Dave / Alex but no response (so far).

By the way, his estimates on mongolian items are really all over the place.

Not yet being discussed here I think. Yowsers the catalogue is filled to the rim with beautiful, extremely rare and very important items. The Transcaucasian awards just make me look at the screen in awe - you could fill a museum with what's in this catalogue! And enjoy the fact that it can be downloaded as PDF - nice as a reference for future

Sad that a Suvorov 3rd+2nd group are split up though...

Photocopy only contained the inside spread shown here on this thread.

It's a sad story.

Update: Alex has confirmed that he acquired the items from Mark (Mark Signa on Soviet-Awards) and Alex will refund me.

Future observers of this "group": beware!

Thank you very much Rick. This confirms two additional things to me:

1) this is a great forum

2) I should stick more to "what I know" (i.e. Mongolian/Albanian)

And indeed, caveat emptor is something I should take more at heart if/when I branch out of my comfort zone of collecting. I believe there's a Russian saying: "trust, but verify".

Some simple questions to be shot off to some people. Will keep the board informed.

Just saw the group for sale...I guess for a $925 profit over the price I sold the Homeland for (and what it's worth, IMHO) it wouldn't be too tough to make up a book and add a $50 Red Star to the group... But that book looks REALLY nice. If I saw the group, I would have bought it without hesitation (not at that price, but then again that's why I don't collect Soviet awards anymore!)

Dave

You're right Dave. Let's just wait and see how this unravels.

PS - I also found it to be expensive but sometimes looking at awards for sale makes you "just want it" (sort of like going to the supermarket when you're hungry... bad idea) and I've been looking around for a researched Homeland "group" for quite some time now. Besides, as many of us who are enthusiasts but not experts, I'll pay a bit extra for a money back guarantee.

In any case, you still have the nice single "Motherland" that Dave sold originally. Unfortunately, only research will tell.

But many things here don't smell seasonally nice.

That is correct... both regarding the nice Motherland and the smell surrounding it.

I've contacted Alex + the original person buying it from Dave. Could have exchanged many times in between those two people so let's wait and see if this can be explained.

Now THAT is fascinating. I sold this Homeland 3rd by itself with research....but no book OR Red Star....

Here's the thread: http://www.soviet-awards.com/forum/soviet-...d-research.html

Makes you wonder perhaps.....

Dave

Dave - only just read your reply (presumably you just received my PM on soviet-awards.com).

I am concerned obviously. Understand that somewhere between you and Alex some things were added to this group. Let's hope for the best.

Uhoh - cause for concern?

I acquired this group from www.russian-awards.com:

"post-WWII group with Order for Service to the Homeland in the Soviet Armed Forces 3 cl to Pilot

Researched with copy of order book

Order for Service to the Homeland in the Soviet Armed Forces (118861), Order of Red Star(3595471)

All items in very good condition"

As you can see, homeland order erronously specified as the actual number is 18861 (as is also clear from the picture on Alex' site).

After receiving it, I did some freshen up reading on the order of homeland order and by coincidence I saw that the order was once in the hands of Dave who sold it on the Soviet Awards forum... but when he sold it there was no copy of order book yet nor was there a red star.

http://www.soviet-awards.com/forum/soviet-...d-research.html

"This is a very nice Homeland 3rd Class number 18816 awarded to Lieutenant Colonel Viktor Mikhailovich Obodzchnskii. He was the Squadron Commander of Electronic Attack in the 226th Separate Guards Aviation Regiment. The order is in beautiful shape with a nice dark patina and no damage. The order comes with his award card and service history (his citation is still classified). A very neat award to an interesting fellow!"

Note Dave also misquoted the actual award number of the order as it's 18861. Date of Dave's post: 07-17-2006, 10:20 PM

Playing Sherlock Holmes I subsequently found the following post by the buyer of Dave's order...

http://www.soviet-awards.com/forum/soviet-....html#post56350

"I have small researched group with Red Star awarded in 1970, serial number 3595741. Then, I found Red Star in same serial number range ( 36XX XXX) in Dave's "for valor" web. - same year 1970. According to AVERS No. 6, the lowest Red star for 1968-1991 period is # 3754168. I don't have the award book with my Red Star ( only Xerox copy ), but Dave posted image of his award book with 1970 Red Star. Looks like it was couple left over Red Stars with low serial numbers in 1970..." date of post - 11-20-2006, 03:08 AM

Now... 3595741 is awfully close to the 3595471 order of red star that was in the group that I acquired from www.russian-awards.com...

Emails have been sent out - I'm not sure what to think, hoping it's a "lucky" reunification somewhere in the "supply chain" of this "group"

Will put research on hold until I get this clarified.

And this must be what he was flying: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-16

Nice rearside machine gun

Excellent

This narrows things down a bit... Tu22 was perhaps not at all far off. Hopefully something more specific in the doc's somewhere and we've found his base

edit - zoom in a bit

Pacific Fleet (TOF)

570 MRAP Tu-16K-10-26* Sovetskaya Gavan

* Badger C-mod

judging from the doc... bingo!

That would be my GUESS based on his radar-jamming foremost front flying afterwards.

But he is referred to as "Air Force" (VVS) and NOT Naval Aviation-- did the ARMY have units flying over the sea?

Quite a lot of data on Soviet airforce on the net, hopefully a place/base name or aircraft name can help to provide further direction. From my quick first searches, there are aircraft types used both by airforce and naval aviation so switching between the two in career may be an option? Example, link here to Tupolev 22 "During the Cold War, the Tu-22M was operated by the VVS (Soviet Air Force) in a strategic bombing role, and by the AVMF (Aviatsiya Voyenno-Morskogo Flota, Soviet Naval Aviation) in a long-range maritime anti-shipping role." - http://www.answers.com/topic/tupolev-tu-22m

anyway, this is speculation - hopefully further details will come up which provide links for further research

1970 Red Star to air force sneaky-stuff pilot? Noooooooooooooo way long service!

His assignment then-- from 24.10.67 was as "ship" (by this I assume "aircraft" is meant) in 570th "MR" ( S omething ? R econnaissance ?) A (viation) P (R egiment) of "BOF"-- ? ?

Perhaps:

Morskoy Razvedivatel'nyi Aviatsion'nyi Polk (Naval Reconnaissance Aviation Regiment)?