Bob
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Posts posted by Bob
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I do not have a copy and if anybody can help source a copy, I'd love to get one.
Apparently not much new actual "information" (e.g. data on manufacturing runs, serials numbers, etc. is all obtained from existing online sources and Urnukh's "bible".
However, appealing pics on Mongolian awards in possession of the Moscow/Leningrad mint as well as pictures of award documents to Soviet citizens (e.g. Brezhnev).
Here's some links to pics of the book:
Новая книга: Награды Монголии - Советским Гражданам (forums-su.com)
And this youtube channel (with multiple mongolian award videos - in Russian unfortunately) appears related to the authors:
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What puzzles me is the selection process.
Only 900 or so cavaliers means it was very prestigious to be awarded a 1st class. But based on what? When I read above that a factory mechanic got one, surely there's millions (?) of others in similar jobs. Was there an aspect here of it not so much being merit based but more intended for propaganda purposes - i.e. setting a good example?
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This same set just 'resold' for roughly 6K USD at the New York Sale auction.
What did the papers say about inflation again?
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On 28/12/2021 at 11:39, bbrandon said:
HI Guys,
A guy is selling 4 Cuba Hero Medals at ebay, he says they are original from Cuba. IMHO they are fake - but still wanted to ask around here - did Cuba have a new Revision / Type of Hero Medals that does looks so chinese faked now?
If you bid on that and then complain once you get it as being fake, he'll say "I never said it was Cuban"
Pay close attention to how he advertises it: " «"Golden Star" of the Hero of Labor of Caribbean»"
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A late addition, I just stumbled on a different interesting location. Unfortunately I've not (yet) visited it.
Hutou Fortress: The Battle That Ended 11 Days After WW2 (thecandytrail.com)
While the Texel uprising appears to be the last WW2 battle in Europe, the Hutou Fortress battle was the last battle of WW2 overall?
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I recently acquired an original soviet as well as an original mongolian border plate.
would love to add a DDR one to it - where to find a true original?
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Two partisan badges just in - one unnumbered and one nr 25
Awfully quiet here and running out of things to post!
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Soyombo nr 152
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I should add, Gongor was awarded a Soviet Order of October revolution at the celebration of 50 years of Mongolian People's Army anniversary. It seems like the OoO were numbered 294-309 (based on various sources) and based on some triangulation of different data points, Colonel Gongor Shagdar was awarded nr 304.
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On 17/01/2011 at 15:47, Bob said:
Nota Bene pointed me in the right direction, and google helped to expand on this.
The correct name appears (not certain) to be:
Sorkin, Naum Semenovitch, Major-General
(1899 – 1980)
CV
1923 - 1926 Artilleray Instructor (in Mongolia)
1926 - 1931 Deployed to Soviet Consulate/Embassy in Mongolia
1939 - 1941 Chief of Special Task Section, Directorate of Intelligece, General Staff
1941 - 1945 Chief Intelligence Officer Far Eastern Front
1945 Chief Intelligence Officer 1st Far Eastern Front
1945 - 1947 Chief Intelligence Officer Far Eastern Military District
1947 - 1950 Head of Educational Department, Military-Diplomatic Academy
1950 - 1952 Attending the Military Academy of the General Staff
1952 - 1958 Deputy Head of ? Faculty, Military Academy of Aviation Engineering
1958 Retired
Author of books, such as "V nachale puti. Zapiski instruktora mongolʹskoĭ armii."
Hopefully more to follow.
Mongolia, Army, Modern Mongolia, Economics. Mongolia Army: History and Modernity (nemelianov.ru)
Interesting reference here to Sorkin being a part of the first group of 12 Soviet military advisors being sent to Mongolia (June 1923).
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‘Khalkhyn Gol Battle lasted 4 years, not 4 months’ (theubposts.com)
Interesting discussion on the starting date / length of the Khalkhin Gol Battle with a reference to Gongor.
"In my case, I agree with historians and researchers who claim that the battle began in 1989. I think this is more accurate because the Japanese and Manchurian aggressions at Mongolian borders between 1935 and 1939 weren’t just small-scale armed conflicts or border attacks. Considering that relatively large military forces attacked the border repeatedly, the battle had already begun by January 1935.
During this period, more than 1,000 Japanese and Manchurian soldiers fought at the border with similar number of tanks and aircrafts. We can’t forget that national heroes such as Sh.Gongor and D.Demberel were recognized amid the numerous battles of bloodshed. This is proof that an undeclared war had set off in Khalkhgol soum."
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"Gongor Shagdaryn (1912-1992). Born in Bayankhutag county of Khentii province. Bestowed the title of Hero of MPR when serving as the Commander of the Border Guard checkpoint at a place named “Bulan Ders”. (Hero Title Decree #4, 29 January 1936).
Comrade Gongor finished a special course for commanders of tank squads in Bayantumen town in May 1936.
Sergeant Gongor led a border patrol consisting of two other border guards at the end of January 1936 around a place called “Bulan Ders”. On a snow stormy evening, the patrol spotted 10 Japanese scouts crossing the border. Comrade Gongor dispatched one of his comrades back to unit camp to call for reinforcements. During the shooting from both sides, the horses of the border guards took off. Sergeant Gongor ordered another comrade to search and find the horses.
In order to confuse the enemies, Gongor used his and his comrades’ sheepskin coats as dummies of border guards. Taking advantage of poor visibility due to snowstorm and darkness, Gongor attacked the enemies from behind. He used his advantageous position to eliminate most of the enemies and forced the rest to retreat.
Comrade Gongor served for the Mongolian Armed Forces until May 1946. He started his military career as a private and completed as the Commander of a military unit.
Gongor was one of the founders of the Mongolian Hunters’ Society. He also held the title of the Best National Archer of the Mongolian People’s Republic.
He published his memoirs “In remote Tamsagbulag” in 1984. Gongor was awarded many orders and medals."
Page #7, Book “Hall of Fame and Feats”
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At the bottom of the following thread is a picture of a very rare brass ribbon for a Hero of Mongolia gold star
Through good fortune an Order of October Revolution (nr 304) also came with that ribbon and research has confirmed it was awarded to
Research has confirmed it was awarded to Gongor Shagdar - the first Hero of MPR (29th January, 1936), awarded for fighting back against the Japanese during an armed clash in 1936. Therefore also close to certain that the brass ribbon is also for Gongor Shagdar.
Attached a picture of the OOR. More pics of Gongor Shagdar on the thread linked above.
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Posting some additional pics:
1. A photograph of Gongor Shagdar where he is wearing his Hero Star + Khalkhin Gol badge + 20 years anniversary badge + brass ribbons. The photograph is probably taken 1959 or 1960. He is wearing his 1940s uniform with the Brigade Commander insignia.
2. Memoirs of Gongor “In remote Tamsagbulag”. The paperback book was published in 1984. It describes his story starting his military service in eastern Mongolia in 1934. And finishes 1936 after he becomes the hero. The book has nice b&w photos of him.
3. Small MPR hero series booklet on Gongor. Describes his feats and also has some interesting information. For example Gongor was awarded a rank of Brigade Commander in 1941 after his unit was selected as the best unit during the 20th anniversary of People’s revolution army wide inspections. Also he was the Best National Archer title holder and renowned hunter.
On the Soviet forum, I've posted pics of the Order of October Revolution which now arrived in my hands.
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Cross-reference here: OoR in this Ukaz likely had a serial nr range of 294-309
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On 04/05/2021 at 20:06, Bob said:
Alright, some free time on my hands.
So obviously this is a rare brass ribbon for the Hero of Mongolian People’s Republic. The brass ribbons were issues from 1944-1961. The Hero brass ribbon (35x12mm) is slightly longer than the regular brass ribbons (29x12mm) which in itself are also not so regular as increasingly difficult to find.
Based on the known nr of Hero stars awarded pre conversion to cloth ribbons, perhaps max. 10 people received a brass ribbon. There were no cloth ribbons for the Hero Star in fact as the expectation was that the Hero Star itself would be worn.
Supposedly the brass ribbon shown above belonged to Gongor Shagdar - the first Hero of MPR (29th January, 1936), awarded for fighting back against the Japanese during an armed clash in 1936. My guess is that he was originally awarded a Badge of the Hero and later (1941) this was converted to a Hero Star.
More info on this: Who is the first recipient of the Hero of Mongolia medal? – Mongolia FAQ
"The first recipient was sergeant Gongor from the Border Guards. On January 28th, 1936 Sergeant Gongor was stationed at the border of Mongolia. He saw 10 Japanese soldiers on horses galloping in his direction. He told one of his soldiers to ride to HQ and inform his superiors, the second soldier to take the horses and hide. As a crack shot he was able to shoot and kill nine of the intruders.
On February of the same year, 500 soldiers from the Japanese Kwantung Army in 20 trucks, with forty light machine guns tried to enter the border again. Around hundred Mongolian border guards were able to repel the attacks. This was fully three years before a full scale Khalkhyn Gol War of 1939. For his bravery, Gongor was given the first Hero of MPRP medal. Among the people he was affectionately called Gongor baatar (hero)."
From that site also attached a cartoon about Gongor.
In Urnukh's blue bible there are some photographs of people wearing a brass Hero ribbon (e.g. Gongor himself on page 22, again on page 26 Gongor but then with the Hero Star and on page 255 Choibalsan is visibly wearing his 2 brass Hero Star ribbons).
Here is another pic of Gongor but no brass ribbon: · Photo Gallery of Khalkin Gol Badge Cavaliers - Page 4 - People's Republic Mongolia - Gentleman's Military Interest Club (gmic.co.uk)
I will also attach a photograph of Gongor wearing his brass Hero Star ribbon while seated among several 1921 partisans. The photograph seems to indicate a lot of respect by Gongor as he's listening to the Partisans. Gongor is the second person from the left. To HIS left is somebody with a Hero of Labour + several brass ribbons. In front of Gongor is somebody with a Partisan badge, a Khalkhin Gol badge and several brass ribbons. More veterans with Partisan badges on the right side of the picture.
I did write "supposedly" the ribbon belonged to Gongor. There is no documentation of this, however there is some hope in verifying this through some other means which I may be able to share at a later stage.
Interesting development.
Attached link to a thread on General Suurin Baldan confirms that Gongor (to whom above brass Hero ribbon apparently belonged) was also awarded a Soviet Order of October revolution. The list shown in the link provides the names of Mongolians who received awards at the celebration of 50 years of Mongolian People's Army anniversary. It seems like the OoO were numbered 294-309 (based on various sources) and based on some triangulation of different data pints, Colonel Gongor Shagdar was awarded nr 304. Now, it just so happens that OoO nr 304 was in the hands of the same person who had acquired above brass ribbon many, many years ago and he insisted that the ribbon and the OoR had both belonged to Gongor. While not direct evidence, the research confirms this to be extremely likely. Now, just to get my hands on the OoR...
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No ribbon for the Hero of Labor as the award itself had to be worn.
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Deal of the century (assuming the item is real), and unfortunately missed it. Quite a few Mongolian Hero Stars came up for auction during the past 2 years. Amazing how the auction house messed up the description on Hero Star nr 40.
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I admire how well organized / documented your collection is!
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On 10/08/2006 at 16:17, Ed_Haynes said:
H 01 -- The Memorial Badge of the 15th Anniversary of the Revolution, 1921-36
These have come recently, in great (and somewhat surprising) quaitity from the vaults of the central bank.
An interesting bit of 'news' on this badge for the 15 anniversary of the MPR (1936).
First, as noted elsewhere:
- Text on the front: "15th anniversary honour medal."
- Text on the back: "Mongolian Government. 26th year - 7th month" (i.e. referring to the independence of Mongolia from China in 1911)
Turns out the badge shown above is a (very common) Type 2: Soviet made with Mondvor screw back plate.
Yes, that implies there is also a Type 1... also manufactured in 1936 but only for a VERY brief period of time and likely only awarded in limited quantities during July of that year before being replaced by the Soviet mint made one.
This Type 1 badge was Mongolian manufactured and thus more 'rough' in appearance and painted with sand paint (used for painting the interior decorations of monasteries) and it also has some gold plating on the edges of the obverse. The reverse has a hand-written inscription that has the same text and date as the Soviet version. It has a pinback attachment.
Apparently the Type 1 badge was made by Buddhist monks who also produced Buddhist god statues, accessories, etc. back in 1936. The badge was replaced as the gap vs. the attractiveness of the Soviet made ones was just too big. Replaced often meant withdrawn / destroyed and in fact many of the awardees were purged during the late 1930's under Choibalsan.
Against that context, I will attach several pictures
1) Purged and executed Mongolian statesman Minister for Justice Comrade Dendev (wearing a Type 1 next to his Red Banner order)
2) Two pictures of partisan Dashzeveg wearing the same Mongolian version next to his orders plus a picture of him wearing a replaced Soviet version instead.
Note, obviously I am just the 'channel' through which above is communicated (following me acquiring the badge) but am happy to share this and breath some life in the Mongolian section here.
I am convinced that there are still more things to discover in Mongolian collecting. Some of the things may even be right in front of us by studies photographs with a magnifying glass. Others will require more research (which is obviously not easy). In any case, patience is key!
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Alright, some free time on my hands.
So obviously this is a rare brass ribbon for the Hero of Mongolian People’s Republic. The brass ribbons were issues from 1944-1961. The Hero brass ribbon (35x12mm) is slightly longer than the regular brass ribbons (29x12mm) which in itself are also not so regular as increasingly difficult to find.
Based on the known nr of Hero stars awarded pre conversion to cloth ribbons, perhaps max. 10 people received a brass ribbon. There were no cloth ribbons for the Hero Star in fact as the expectation was that the Hero Star itself would be worn.
Supposedly the brass ribbon shown above belonged to Gongor Shagdar - the first Hero of MPR (29th January, 1936), awarded for fighting back against the Japanese during an armed clash in 1936. My guess is that he was originally awarded a Badge of the Hero and later (1941) this was converted to a Hero Star.
More info on this: Who is the first recipient of the Hero of Mongolia medal? – Mongolia FAQ
"The first recipient was sergeant Gongor from the Border Guards. On January 28th, 1936 Sergeant Gongor was stationed at the border of Mongolia. He saw 10 Japanese soldiers on horses galloping in his direction. He told one of his soldiers to ride to HQ and inform his superiors, the second soldier to take the horses and hide. As a crack shot he was able to shoot and kill nine of the intruders.
On February of the same year, 500 soldiers from the Japanese Kwantung Army in 20 trucks, with forty light machine guns tried to enter the border again. Around hundred Mongolian border guards were able to repel the attacks. This was fully three years before a full scale Khalkhyn Gol War of 1939. For his bravery, Gongor was given the first Hero of MPRP medal. Among the people he was affectionately called Gongor baatar (hero)."
From that site also attached a cartoon about Gongor.
In Urnukh's blue bible there are some photographs of people wearing a brass Hero ribbon (e.g. Gongor himself on page 22, again on page 26 Gongor but then with the Hero Star and on page 255 Choibalsan is visibly wearing his 2 brass Hero Star ribbons).
Here is another pic of Gongor but no brass ribbon: · Photo Gallery of Khalkin Gol Badge Cavaliers - Page 4 - People's Republic Mongolia - Gentleman's Military Interest Club (gmic.co.uk)
I will also attach a photograph of Gongor wearing his brass Hero Star ribbon while seated among several 1921 partisans. The photograph seems to indicate a lot of respect by Gongor as he's listening to the Partisans. Gongor is the second person from the left. To HIS left is somebody with a Hero of Labour + several brass ribbons. In front of Gongor is somebody with a Partisan badge, a Khalkhin Gol badge and several brass ribbons. More veterans with Partisan badges on the right side of the picture.
I did write "supposedly" the ribbon belonged to Gongor. There is no documentation of this, however there is some hope in verifying this through some other means which I may be able to share at a later stage.
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12 hours ago, fjcp said:
Well......now that is exciting!!!!
Glad somebody recognized it! And not surprised it's you!
Been rather quiet here and thought this would breath some life back into things.
I'm overloaded with work but will try to get some more details posted today or tomorrow.
I was keeping my fingers crossed for 10+ years to perhaps still get an SB brass ribbon. Well, that hasn't materialized (yet) but to have this one 'appear' is a very exciting surprise.
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More details to come...
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I recently received this Tamara plus document and (to my surprise) a bunch of additional documents about the Order of Queen Tamara in general incl scans of 2 additional award documents
the writing on these docs is not always easy to decypher but my award document coming with the Tamara appears awarded to (Sergeant?) Herrmann Stelter from Sturmbataillon 10, correct? Also, this document has written in pencil on it “wintershagen bei neustadt” - any idea of what the significance of that could be? upon googling, it refers to "wintershagen bei neustadt in holstein" (northern germany) - why?
any insight on the scans of other docs?
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ORDER BOOKLETS
in People's Republic Mongolia
Posted
Remarkable how years later there is more to be found online about sorkin incl pics
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naum_Sorkin