Solomon

2.order

Order for Art and Science 2nd class Schaumburg-Lippe (new style after 1901)

(119 awards at all - 30 awards for women)

This one belongs to the order of A & S Lippe-Detmold and was also awarded by Sanna Klara Valentin-Strandberg ("Lilly Walleni") on 12. December 1913.

She awarded also the title "F?rstlich Lippische Kammers?ngerin"

Greetings

Solomon

Ah...my favorite theme

I showed my highlights some time ago...but here they are again:

1. Order:

Order for Art and Science 2nd class with oakleaves Lippe-Detmold (especially nice medal for the gentlemen )

(43 awards - 4 awarded by women)

This one was awarded by Sanna Klara Valentin-Strandberg ("Lilly Walleni") on 19. February 1914

I'm sorry to put these pictures here, but the seller wants a quick answer from me.

And solomon, I got an email that your mailbox is currently full.... sorry to have flooded your box :S

And putting up a thread seems to take quite a long way...

The admin may remove them and put them in an appropriate place.

I would like to have your opinion on their value and originality.....

War merit cross lippe detmold

*no ribbon*

Hmm, strange...my mailbox isn?t full...I accept emails up to 4 MB...anyway, all items look very well and there is nothing to worry about.

Values (IMO):

War merit cross Lippe-Detmold = about 40,- EUR (because of the missing ribbon)

Friedrich August medal = about 18,- EUR

Kriegshilfsdienst-Kreuz = about 10,- EUR

Hindenburg-cross = about 5,- EUR

Greetings Solomon

Very nice medals

I had one with a ribbon in my hand a few month ago, at a local collectors meeting from another forum.

We discussed a quite interesting question:

The "C" at the ring of these medals...what does is it stands for? Makers mark?

Does anybody have an answer?

Greetings

Solomon

By the way, the bavarian cross you are looking for, should be the military merit cross 3th class with swords.

I found a picture at www.weitze.net .

If this is correct, the value should be about 40 EURO (about 50 USD) without ribbon.

Greetings

Solomon

Dear Solomon,

I meant that my cros was the middle one,

[...]

Also how much it would cost to have a ribbon for the lippe detmold war merit cross 2nd class???

Thanks in advance.

Ah, I misunderstood you. The picture you showed is the rare "Honor cross for heroic deeds".

There you can read "F?r heldenm?tige Tat" on the front of the cross.

You mean the war-merit-cross Lippe Detmold...it?s value is about 50-70 EURO (about 60-90 USD) without the ribbon.

The original ribbon is quite hard to find...I searched some months to complete my three war merit crosses (I have also two on a ribbon bar).

An original ribbon (for combatants) may cost about 10-15 EURO (12-20 USD)...the original ribbon for non-combatants (white center) costs even more.

I hope, I helped you...

Greetings

Solomon

what do you gents think of it's value ?nd the ability to re-ribbon the lippe detmold cross???

Thanks in advance,

Kind regards,

Jacky

Hmmmm, I?m not sure that I understood your question in the correct way...

The cross, you showed us, is a pinback-cross, of course without ribbon.

I introduced this "Honor corss for heroic deeds" in this forum some time ago.

-> LINK <-

Do you have some pics from the cross? There exist some fakes and it?s not very cheap.

Greetings

Solomon

Thank you for your help...it?s an unespected answer

I thought it would have been an easy job to identify this man...

Greetings

Solomon

Post a scan. Never heard of any such thing.

There was a variety of such "Ehrengaben" (badge with chiffre of Kaiser Wilhelm, etc)...many of them with ruby, diamonds etc.

I heard Huesken published a catalogue with such pin-badges...Weitze actually sells two.

I also found a few, which Huesken sells.

The photo (from Huesken?s shop) shows one from "Kaiser Karl I." from Austria (enamelled gold).

Greetings

Solomon

I got this photo on Ebay for a quite nice price...

But the seller offered a few month ago another photo from this man - I missed it, because it was too expensive...

On this photo (maybe taken in 1935) this soldiers had some more awards at his ribbon bar, as you can see on that picture.

I have no idea, which awards they are (surely all awards he wasn?t allowed to wear official after he got the Hindenburg-cross).

It is also very intersting, that the war merit cross Lippe is mounted at this ribbon bar at the wrong place!

It had to be mounted directly after the IC 1914!

Maybe, Rick can help me again to find out his name

Greetings

Solomon

Hello gentlemen,

here is again a very nice photo from a Officer from Lippe-Detmold

I think the year in which this photo was taken should be 1941, as you can read at the top of the picture.

This photo is much rarer as it seems to be:

This man got the following awards:

at the ribbon bar:

-IC 2nd class 1914

-war merit cross Lippe-Detmold

-military merit medal Lippe-Detmold (???)

-House Order of Lippe-Detmold (perhaps 3th class with swords...because the Officer?s Honor Cross replaces the old 3th class with oakleaves!!!)

-Hindenburg-cross

at his breast:

-Spange 1939 for iron cross 2nd class (early style!)

-IC 1st class 1939

-black wound badge WW I

-Officer?s Honor Cross with swords Lippe-Detmold

This photo is very rare, because the Officer?s Honor Cross with swords was only 37 times awarded !

I?m sorry, but I haven?t the fitting cross in my collection...I missed one last year in an auction because of its price

I wonder if the ribbon is not actually the House Order (metallic edges) but the Milit?rverdienstmedaille--for wounds? It should NOT be in that position, but nothing else seems to fit.

Thank you Rick for your help

I have to go to the archive and I have to find his signed receipt of the honor-cross for heroic deeds, because this seems to be the only way, to find out who he really is.

The MVM (military-merit-medal) is impossible at this position. It had to be mounted after the Kriegsverdienstkreuz (war merit cross Lippe) in any case.

It is also quite impossible that he got the MVM for wounds:

There were exactely 55 awards of the MVM for wounded soldiers. They were all soldiers of the

55th regiment (6. Westf. Infanterie-Regiment Graf B?low von Dennewitz Nr. 55 = the only regiment from Lippe).

These medals were all (!!) without swords - a provisional wartime-award, awarded in December of 1914.

And -not like the other medals without swords - these awards had not to be changed into the the MVM with swords!

But I haven?t any other proposal, what else it can be

Quite a difficult case...

Greetings

Solomon

Here is the name on the bag of the negative...maybe "B?smer" ???

I correct myself...it should be "B?hmer" (sounds much better )

Greetings

Solomon

And here is his name written directly on the negative...

I?m quite sure that he got the House Order with swords of Lippe-Detmold (4th class 1.Division maybe).

I hope, i?t isn?t too much work to check all names in your lists

Thank you very much fpor your help!

Greetings

Solomon

Here is the name on the bag of the negative...maybe "B?smer" ???

I HAVE those rolls, but NOT the pinback Cross roll to compare against!

There is something I?ve forgotten...there is a name on the original negative...the shown photo is only a copy from it.

But I wasn?t able to identify the name... I`ll make a scan...maybe you can help me, to give this man a name. At my next visit in Detmold I?ll check this name with the receipts of the pinback-cross.

Greetings

Solomon

Interesting, I don't see an EK1.

He didn?t had to own an EK1 for the honor-cross of Lippe-Detmold.

And there was even no need to own the war-merit-cross Lippe-Detmold....look at Richthofen?s awards

I have one another military-passport in my collection from a person who awarded this cross...again no EK 1.

Greetings

Solomon

Mostly he sells faked (rare) ribbon-bars...be carefull

Greetings

Solomon

Here is another nice picture, which I have new in my collection.

It was taken in WW II, but it fits here perfect...

The soldier, Leutnant of the infantery-regiment No. 63, awarded the turkish Gallipoli star (Tuerkischer Halbmond),

the honor cross for heroic deeds (convex-form) and at his ribbon-bar you can find

-IC 2nd class 1914

-house-order or military merit medal Lippe-Detmold (with swords)

-war honor cross Lippe-Detmold

-bavarian military merit cross 4th class with swords (?)

-??? (maybe turkish medal)

-Hindenburg-Cross with swords

May be someone can fill the ??? at the ribbon-bar for me ?

Greetings

Solomon

Hallo Solomon.

Is it possible that a Cross or medal would have been issued to an officer or soldier with a production fault?, I thought all these would have been inspected before leaving the factory, or if a private purchase the buyer would have rejected it out of hand.

Kevin in Deva

You are right, I didn?t think about that... I was wondering, because a very small piece is broken out from this cross....a quite strange crack.

@all

The only bavarian order, which is listed is " bayer. Mil.-Verdienst Orden IV m. Schw." (bavarian military merit order 4.th class with swords).

But please remember...his list only includes awards he got till 23th October 1917!

Some (later) awards are missing...the Red Eagle Order 3th class with the crown and swords for example!

Greetings

Solomon

Thank you, Wild Card

Because I don?t live far away from Detmold, it is easy for me to research information in the archive of Detmold.

I think the crack in my cross maybe a production-fault, because it is almost unworn.

By the way...here is something very interesting, which can only be found in the archive.

The document is originally signed by the "Red Baron"...his various awards are very interesting

(I?m allowed to show you this copy -> copyrights by the archive in Detmold)

Hope you enjoy it...

Greetings

Solomon

Hmm, I?ve never seen such a citation yet. Maybe you can find it in the files of the archive in Detmold ???

In my passport of "August Kramer", there is only a entry "Stellungskrieg in frz. Flandern"...

His signed receipt, I found in the archive, doesn?t say anything about that.

Greetings

Solomon

Does someone has the text of a citation for this cross? It would be interesting to read, for which level of actions and deeds it was awarded.

It?s very easy, you can find the statues at the document?s back. They are the same for the war merit cross, except ? 4.

Here is a scan from one of my documents...

Greetings

Solomon

@Daniel: Very nice screwback-cross... There is still a place free in my collection

Here are some more information, you can?t find anywhere, but in the archive...

Yesterday I went again to Detmold and I had the original receipts the persons who awarded this cross had to fill out in my hands:

There were some well known persons, who got it:

First, I?ve found the original one for "Freiherr Manfred Albert von Richthofen" and of course, I have made a copy for my collection

But there are some more highlights:

The first cross was awarded by Prince Leopold IV. of Lippe-Detmold (who also spent this cross).

On 13. October 1916 von Hindenburg and von Ludendorff signed (personally) the receipts!

Pince Luitpold of Bavaria, Kaiser Wilhelm II., General von Falkenhayn and some other

well known generals with a very long list of other orders and awards, they got,

can also be found in these files...Pretty nice to read

Of course, I also found and copied the receipt, which fits to my military pass of "August Kramer".

Greetings

Solomon

I?ll agree. The cross, the photo shows, seems to be flat. Quite difficicult, because it?s the first time I see a flat one.

IMO, your cross is an original one, made by Zimmermann.

Greetings

Solomon