Schießplatzmeister

Hello everyone:

Yes, this is a scary bar to say the least. Someone is apparently fond of it however (unless there are schill bidders involved). The HHO's swords are not of the proper proportions either, they are possibly a bit longer than those on original pieces (in addition to not being marked). I have had an original HHO badge that was not maker marked, but it was still marked "938". Apparently, copies of HHO badges were made by Steinauer & Luck into the 50's, 60's. I think that all of them would look like garbage when viewed closely.

Like Rick stated, what isn't there gives one a clue that there is a problem. Where is the Honor Cross with swords? I can't think of one example off hand of a recipient who was on active duty in the late 30's that did not have an Honor Cross included in his group. Most veterans applied for their crosses and wore them proudly.

Hence, were have a recently manufactured group with a gilded MVO 4 w/sw, a HHO w/sw of modern manufacture (post WWII to be sure), and NO Honor Cross! The group just doesn't make sense! Notice how bright the gilding looks. Original gilded silver WWI German Orders look a bit dull usually. I believe that this group appeared on Ebay some years ago also as it looks a bit familiar.

Excellent observations by Medalnet regarding the gilding of 4th class MVO badges. Also note that there are "instant" 2nd and 1st class merit crosses of the MVO circulating (with and without swords). 3rd class merit crosses w/ swords are silver/gold plated, their centers are enamelled, and the swords are removed if a badge w/o swords is desired. I have seen a bunch of these come out of Germany in the past.

Schie?platzmeister

It is easier to say what this is not, rather than what it exactly is. It is certainly not an official award of any sort. It is apparently manufactured in the general style of an iron cross as it seems to have a cast iron main body and silver applications to the ends of the cross arms and a silver suspension (Note that it is difficult to determine the exact composition of the piece without a first-hand examination). The suspension ring is made of ribbed stock often seen on items of this age. The one side states "The Great One is not anymore" as best I can translate. It therefore seems to be a memorial cross. The word "victory" appears at the top on the opposite side. There is also the date "D? 19? Juni 1815" (difficult to read). This would correspond with the battles of Quatre Bras and Waterloo roughly. The initials at the center appear to be "W" over "B" (but these are difficult for me to read accurately also). My GUESS is that this is a memorial cross for Friedrich Wilhelm Herzog von Braunschweig (The Black Duke, Duke of Brunswick) who was killed by a GSW at the battle of Quatre Bras of June 16, 1815. Perhaps there was a delay of three (3) days until his memorial service which would explain the 19th date (?). In any case, this would be a privately-purchased memorial piece. It appears to be original and of the period. An interesting piece! Perhaps there is someone out there who could verify or discount my speculation.

Thanks,

Schie?platzmeister

On more comment and I will let it go:

Friedrich Wilhelm ordered on December 19, 1851, that all people being awarded a medal or order for their jubilee will have device attached to the order showing the number of the particular jubilee.

This should clarify this issue.

Hello again everyone:

Thanks for clearing-up my earlier improper statement. I stand corrected! Great information!

Schie?platzmeister

Greetings folks:

Unfortunately, I concur with Medalnet. There are far too many Prussian KO and RAO (even 3rd and 4th class!) turning up with jubilee numerals, compared to the actual numbers that could have actually have been prepared/modified for wear by actual recipients upon completing 50 (+) years of holding the award as a recipient. Antique pieces are exceedingly rare and seldom encountered. The forgers can easily modify genuine badges for a bit of decent financial return for their minimal time and expense. There is a certain auction house in Germany which seems to have many of these types of items regularly offered.

The situation seems to be getting worse all of the time as forgeries of relatively common items are now cropping up. Also, there are exceedingly good copies of Orders now being made by jewelers with "old world" skills. Where there is money to be made the forgers and criminals (usually the same thing) will strike. We have joined the 3rd Reich medal and badge collectors in the struggle to keep our collections free of forgeries. Caveat Emptor!

Please understand that my comments in no way judge the piece listed at the top of this thread!

Thanks,

Schie?platzmeister