Schießplatzmeister

.... reverse

Hello Micha:

I believe that this is an issued-original. You can see how the crown is made from two pieces (a front and rear piece) and that the crown assembly is added to the cross.

There are recent forgeries which lack this feature and which also have a different pin. Also, the swords are added to the body of the cross and do not appear to have been cast with the main body of the cross.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello:

This is a perfectly good piece in nice condition with an original ribbon. As previously stated, these are rather common. Therefore, the desirability of this item depends upon the price at which it is offered.

Best regards,

"SPM"

This is for sale on an ebay like site.., anyone any idea of its quality?

Ramon

Hello Ramon:

There appear to be no problems with this group. It appears to probably have belonged to a Leutnant who had received a field-grade promotion during the war. He also probably didn't survive to apply for his Hindenburg Cross and have it added to the group.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Heiko:

I saw this photo too. I think that you are correct, the medals are probably Württemberg 9 or 12 year service medals. The ribbon color appears to be correct for this possiblity. They do not look like Bavarian awards (which could also be a possibity for Ulm).

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Claudius:

Thank you for your comments. I have had this bar for a few years now. It is featured on the website of a good friend of mine. Theoretically, it should be possible to identify the recipient, but it would be a daunting task. The problem is that there are no Reuss rolls as far as I know. I know that Rick was working on Sachsen-Meiningen rolls, but I don't know if he inhereted the listing of lifesaving medal recipients. There were probably more than a few police recipients of this award however. So, there will probably never be a name to go with it unless photos/documents turn-up somewhere (unlikely).

In any case, it is one of the best police extremely-long service groups that I have ever encountered.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello again:

Here is an example of the ribbon.

"SPM"

Hello Heiko:

I agree with you that this is a Sachsen-Meiningen Lifesaving Medal. The ribbon for this award is white with green side stripes (which compares favorably with what is shown in the photo). With only 71 struck and probably fewer than this awarded, a fantastic photograph! Congratulations.

MfG,

"SPM"

Hello:

A very nice group. This was an Officer's group. The 25 Year Prussian Long-Service Cross was for Officer's only. The Prussian General Honor Decorations were awarded in silver until 1912 when awards were changed to the much more economical bronze. The inscription of the reverse is basically translated as "State (County) Merit". I see a bit of damage to the ribbon for this award. It may have possibly been a Prussian Red Eagle Order IV at one point. Both the RAO IV and the AEZ were awarded for merit or long-service in civil service positions. Since your fellow has a Hamburg Hanseatic Cross for WWI service, there is also the possiblity that he was a naval Officer. Unfortunately, this Officer's bar cannot be researched as to the specific recipient as this is a very common combination of awards.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello everyone:

Some of Eichhorn's documents were offered previously in individual lots by Andreas Thies in 2007. It is a shame when such items are scattered. That unfortunately however is the "norm" now as dealers/auction firms split up items to maximize profits. Sadly, once this is done, they can almost never be re-united.

Best regards,

"SPM"

I think the one on the right is a bloke trying to avoid war service

Just noticed the Observer isn't wearing his EKII ribbon.

Tony

Hello:

No avoiding war service here. This fellow is a highly decorated combat veteran. He is wearing an EKI. The reason his EKII ribbon isn't visible is because it was not possible to wear buttonhole ribbons on this particular type of tunic. The award on his right side looks like an Austrian air force qualification badge of some sort.

The "observer" badge is for obsevation from a two-seater plane. This was a very dangerous job. These Officers usually located and marked enemy targets on a map, or took photos of ground targets. When such a plane was attacked, they also had to utilize whatever rear-facing weapons systems the plane had to keep the enemy plane away (or shoot it down if possible).

I can't tell if the Observer's qualification badge is Bavarian or Prussian due to the resolution of the photo.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Thanks SPM

so the medal bar is clear... what about rank and uniform?

Heiko

Hello again Heiko:

Unfortunately, I know next to nothing regarding colonial/Schutztruppe/marine uniforms. Looking at the first medal, I am not 100% certain as to what it is. It looks like it has a MEZII ribbon and the shape of a China Campaign Medal. Of course ribbons sometimes look very odd with these types of old photographs with light colors looking dark, etc. The second medal of course is a DSWA Campaign Medal (it is too bad that we can't see what the bars say!).

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Heiko:

This is a wonderful photograph. It indeed looks to be a bayerische pre-1905-type MVK in the 3rd position. It also looks as though there are possibly crossed swords appended to the ribbon per the later regulation. The 4th position piece is definately a 1905 Jubilee or Luitpold medal. He is also wearing a long-service clasp for NCO's (but which one is not clear: ? years).

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Claudius:

Is there any specific information that you are looking for regarding a Bavarian Air Corps member? If so, perhaps there are folks here that can help.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Chris,

I am just going by the tables that list the arms for the various types of units. Perhaps it is a prewar list. I'm sure Sturmpioniere would have had carbines. If you take a look in Kraus or Führer durch Heer and Flötte, both list the Gewehr 98 as the arm for pioneers.

Chip

Hello all:

The carbines would certainly make sense for assault troops such as this. Even if they were not always issued, I am certain that they were favored if they could obtain them. For assault troops the range/accuracy of the GEW98 was not as critical. In most cases the rifle became secondary to grenades, pistols, entrenching tools, etc. once the gap was closed during an assault. The carbine was lighter and therefore easier to carry. It was also easier to manouver with in an enemy trench if it had to be utilized (or even once it was slung).

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Hipnos:

I saw this too. Not only is the EKII a modern forgery, but many of the ribbons appear to be modern. I have also never seen a large medal bar from this period put together in this manner. So overall, the value of the group would only include the market value of the four (4) remaining pieces on the bar [of which some appear to possibly be non-issued (period?) restrikes].

So, this is definately not good.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Bear:

This is a wonderful portrait. Thank you for sharing it with us. Unfortunately, I don't see much here that could assist regarding identification of this Officer. If only there were a few Orders worn!

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Barry:

I have found this website very helpful in the past:

http://members.home.nl/uythoven/Wurttemberg/Wurttemberg%20officers.htm

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Paul:

You are correct, there would be no way to be 100% certain of the recipient of these medals without supporting documents, photos, etc. He was undoubtedly awarded the MEI and MEII during the 1864 and/or 1866 campaigns. Is the MEI marked?

The Austrian bravery medal looks to be silver to me, but it could be gilded (it is difficult to determine with the lighting).

Best regards,

"SPM"

It appears to be a commemorative piece for the 50th anniversary of the founding of the Bavarian Kriegerbund, a veteran's group. The ribbon is not correct. It is correct for either the Prussian 1870/71 campaign medal or the Hindenburg Cross for WWI service.

Beau:

You are absolutely correct regarding this piece. This is a medal that was for display on flags of the BKB. It was originally suspended from an half blue and half white ribbon.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Lars:

This is not an exact representation of a Bavarian Pilot's Qualification Badge. It does however have elements of that design: Bavarian Crown and pilot's badge shape and wreath. The center has the design of the "winged-propeller" which of course was the design of the epaulette device for the German Air Service. This is therefore in my opinion something which may have been available for Bavarian Air Service veteran's to purchase after the War. As to the exact date of manufacture, I can't be certain.

There are many others on this site who are Imperial German aviation experts who will certainly know more about this particular item.

Best regards,

"SPM"

I know the scans look like from sci-fi movie but that's not important My question is - is the bar OK? MVO and MVK in one bar? How can that happen? Was an NCO awarded with MVK and later promoted to officer and awarded with MVO?

Hello avadski:

Yes, such a thing was indeed possible. A good number of senior NCO's received battlefield commissions and were later awarded the MVO IV w/swords. Thus, one sees a mix of NCO and Officer grade awards to one individual. I believe that these battlefield commissions were only considered temporary. Such a practical solution to the Officer attrition problem was apparently necessary. Senior NCO's with their extensive combat experience could fill such a role brilliantly.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Matt:

The standard awarded early war crosses were made of iron and were magnetic. This piece looks to be made from "war metal" or aluminum possibly. The suspension is either a repair or the suspension was made in this fashion, but it deviates 90 degrees from the suspension on awarded pieces. Yes, the finish is irregular which is from a poor paint application or flaws in the piece itself (possibly from casting?). The arms are stippled which was not a feature of awarded pieces (but has been known on later replacement pieces).

Although this may be a late war or post war private purchase piece, with so many original awarded iron pieces out there, I would pass on this one.

Best regards,

"SPM"

I don't know much about the higher grades of MVO, but isn't the post-1905 not actually the same as the pre-1905 commander's cross? Or are there any differences?

I know there are same makers that stopped pre-1905 and therefore have to be "old type", but the crosses did not change, did they?

One thing regarding Künker and Autengruber: they are good and I don't think have any bad intentions (some others have, for sure), but Autengruber seems to have missed somthing about 1870 EKs: an apparently so called 9th bead fake is offered as 1900 to 1914 replacement cross...

Hello Sascha:

An excellent point. Yes, you are indeed correct, the pre-1905 Commander's Cross was the same as the post-1905 II Class. Before 1905, the Knight 1st Class looked like the post-1905 MVO III (this type has flames between the arms). Before 1905 the Knight 2nd Class looked the same as the post-1905 MVO III, except without flames between the arms.

What I had meant to articulate (but did not do so properly) was that the MVO II and the MVO Knight II are different.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello avadski:

Yes, this is the newer-type (post 1905) MVO II. It is certainly gold and it looks good to me from the photos. This piece is from the Tammann collection. The only problem with it is the slight damage to the enamel. But, most of these pieces are encountered with some chipping usually. Kuenker is a good auction house and has an excellent reputation. These pieces were catalogued by Mr. Autengruber who is well-respected in this field.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Just found "allerhöchste Anerkennung Sr. Maj. des Königs von Sachsen (Ehrendiplom)" listed among the awards-- St. Henry Order, Gold St. Henry Medal, Silver St. Henry Medal ( ), SA3bX, LKr, EK1 and 2 of 8 times wounded (!) died of wounds in captivity Leutnant Richard Walter Kühn (1894-1918) St. Henry Gold Medal winners biography.

Hello Rick:

It is interesting that you should mention Kühn. His large medal group is being offered for sale currently. Unfortunately, the original Gold (in real gold) St. Heinrich Medal was removed from the group and there is a horrible copy in place of it.

Best regards,

"SPM"