Schießplatzmeister

Hello avadski:

Yes, this is the newer-type (post 1905) MVO II. It is certainly gold and it looks good to me from the photos. This piece is from the Tammann collection. The only problem with it is the slight damage to the enamel. But, most of these pieces are encountered with some chipping usually. Kuenker is a good auction house and has an excellent reputation. These pieces were catalogued by Mr. Autengruber who is well-respected in this field.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Just found "allerhöchste Anerkennung Sr. Maj. des Königs von Sachsen (Ehrendiplom)" listed among the awards-- St. Henry Order, Gold St. Henry Medal, Silver St. Henry Medal ( ), SA3bX, LKr, EK1 and 2 of 8 times wounded (!) died of wounds in captivity Leutnant Richard Walter Kühn (1894-1918) St. Henry Gold Medal winners biography.

Hello Rick:

It is interesting that you should mention Kühn. His large medal group is being offered for sale currently. Unfortunately, the original Gold (in real gold) St. Heinrich Medal was removed from the group and there is a horrible copy in place of it.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello:

This MIGHT be OK. But, the lack of an EKII is not usual. It seems that it is possible to not have received it though. This fellow was in the Bavarian Army in 1905 and received the Jubilee medal (the ribbon looks OK, and is probably faded a bit). This award screams "old soldier", and has nothing to do with being in a non-combat role. It only concerns being in the Army long-before 1914. He was then still in the Army during the 1914-1918 conflict and received the MVKIII with swords (perhaps as an NCO who was in an administrative position of some sort?). There is no "beamten" ribbon, but I guess that such a thing was possible. He was awarded the 15 Year Service Cross as an NCO (he was never an Officer). He then survived into the 1930's and received his Hindenburg Cross with Swords and his 25 Year Third Reich Civil Service Cross (missing). Perhaps the Ludwig Cross belonged to a relative or his wife and was just stuck there by someone. It is difficult to be certain without seeing the back of the group and handling it, if the group's basic construction is genuine.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello avadski:

Congratulations on obtaining this genuine late war (~1918) zinc-alloy/steel example. These as you know are much rarer than the other copper pieces that are often seen. As to the maker, I imagine that like most other MVK's, the majority were made by Gebruder Hemmerle, München, but Weiss u. Co., Leser, etc. may have made these too. Without markings on the piece and without the packing materials (envelope?) that the piece came in (if this was labelled by the maker), it is impossible to tell.

When the MVO/MVK book finally is published, all may be revealled.

Best regards,

"SPM"

One more thing...I posted a question about a good book dedicated to MVKs in the library section (http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=39128&pid=362444&st=0&#entry362444). If something comes up to your minds please let me know. Thank you.

Hello again:

There are no good books out there currently in my opinion, but..... I have heard rumors of an excellent book on the MVO (and perhaps the MVK) which will shortly be published by an expert in Germany. So, save your money for that book when it is published.

"SPM"

Guys,

I have this cross for a couple of months and I believe it's a fake. I would welcome any opinions of bavarian collectors here. Thank you very much guys in advance.

Hello Avadski:

Unfortunately, I believe that you are probably correct in your estimation regarding this piece. It was most likely a genuine MVKIII with swords piece at one time. It is easy for a forger to remove the swords and use a small grinding tool, or file, to remove all traces of the hole through which the swords were pinned. In twenty (20) years of collecting, I have never seen one of these that I am comfortable with. I therefore don't have one in my collection (nor a pilot's qualification badge nor a submarine badge for that matter). I would only feel comfortable with one of these if in came with a group of items and the document (another thing that I have never seen because there were relatively few awards).

Although it is not possible to be 100% certain regarding your piece without inspecting it personally, I would have to say that it is most likely an altered piece.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Gentlemen.

This is my first post on this forum. I was hoping to find out a bit more information on the Turkish Iron Star. Here is one that is currently on ebay. Is it a good one? I know there were painted versions as well as enamel versions. Where the painted ones all Turkish made?

Thank you

M Hunter.

Hello M. Hunter:

The Ottoman "Iron Half-moon" is probably good from what the photos reveal (although it is difficult to tell from the poor quality of the photos). The painted versions were actually awarded. The enamelled versions were pieces commissioned by German and Austrian recipients. I believe that all of the painted pieces with this type of pin were made in the Ottoman Empire. Unfortunately, prices for these items have been steadily on the rise and there is a healthy market in copies now (at least for the enamelled pieces). I do not know if the painted pieces are copied now, but I would assume that there could be copies about as there is enough of a market incentive for criminals to do so. Also, the original painted pieces are not well finished and would be relatively easy to replicate convincingly.

There is a Turkish/Ottoman section on this website and you could search for more information there as this topic has been covered extensively.

Best regards,

"SPM"

I have never seen a list of 1870/71 Bravery Medal recipients.

It might be theoretically possible that a Prussian got a "courtesy" award, since I have posted the Militärpaß of an ordinary Prussian NCO who got the Saxon St Henry Medal in Gold (!!!!!!) apparently on some sort of "quota exchange" to wear with his EK2. NO connection whatsoever with Saxony in his case.

I'm not aware of any non-Bavarians receiving this bravery medal during the World War, so chances are here it was simply mis-mounted by a Bavarian who THOUGHT the Iron Cross "outranked" it.

Hello again:

The only listings of 1870/71 TKM recipients that I am aware of are in Bavarian regimental histories. I have never seen a TKM awarded to a non-Bavarian during any time period. I find it extremely unlikely that the recipient of this group was not a Bavarian.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Is he tracable? We have the EK2 list, so I would suppose the Bav. medal list is also available.

Hello everyone:

It would not be possible to come up with the recipient's name in my opinion. There are far too many NCO's and soldiers who probably received this combination of awards.

Stogieman is correct in that a Bavarian would probably with few exceptions never place his TKM behind the EKII in a group. This makes the group highly unusual. I have however seen a photo of an 1870-71 Bavarian veteran who did wear his TKM behind the EKII with the medals pinned to his tunic individually. For Bavarians, they usually wore the TKM in the first position on their large medal groups until the mid-1930's when the NSDAP regulations changed everything to a standardized Prussian bias (even MMJO Knight's Cross recipients had to wear their MMJO BEHIND the lowly EKII!!).

The TKM in this group is genuine, and the ribbon for it is old (original). This looks to be a good group that has not been messed with (although a somewhat unusual group in my opinion). This is of course the second coinage of the silver TKM awarded for the 1870-71 conflict.

Congratulations Dond on obtaining such a nice group!

Best regards,

"SPM" (note that the new website format has changed me from "Schießplatzmeister" to "Schie?platzmeister").

Hi Beau,

That is a beautiful piece that you have there. On the off chance that it turns out to Be Russian,

I thought that you might find this to be interesting.

Well....it is strange that you should mention the Russian star Wildcard. This piece was in a collection with the very star that made its way to George's collection. I remember when these items came up for sale through a "dealer" in New York. I do not remember the name of the person who had the collection originally unfortunately. I do remember a vast collection of Bavarian regimental histories from this source that were overpriced and which I passed on. I do wish I had them today though (although they still would not even be worth today what was asked for them then). Sadly, the library was broken-up and went to "who knows where".

There was a gold (silver-gilt) Bavarian Bravery Medal in this collection also. And if I remember correctly, perhaps a MVO Officer's Cross. Most of the collection was long-gone before I saw it.

Best regards,

"SPM"

And I forgot to bid on it... lucky Heiko...

I see a medal bar with MVK, MEZ1, EK2, VKfKH.... but assume rather a China medal in last place. Isn't Bavarian MVM somewhat bigger? Heiko, get a scanner, please...

I believe that Sascha (who is known to be very good at these matters) is correct. The medal in the last position looks to be a bit small (~30mm?) to be a Bavarian TKM.

Would it have been possible for Bavarians to possibly receive the Prussian Kriegerverdienstmedaille as "foreigners" during the colonial conflicts??? If have never seen this before and don't believe it to be probable, but perhaps it is an obscure possibility???

But looking again and again, there DO appear to be lighter (blue??) edge stripes to the ribbon like a TKM!!!

The mystery continues!

Best regard,

"SPM"

Hello David:

Here is all of the information regarding the source:

Zelosko, Frank. F?r Badens Ehre, Milit?rischer Karl=Friedrich=Verdienstorden und Verdienstmedaille, 1807-1918, Zweiter Band. Frank Zelosko. Mosbach, 2003. Page 167.

Best regards,

"SPM"

From "F?r Badens Ehre", by Frank Zelosko, Zweiter Band:

"Roggenbach, Constantin von. * April 1794. Sekondeleutnant im DragonerRgt von Freystedt. Ritterkreuz am 4.November 1813 {Ordre vom 2.Mai 1813}, [164] ...wegen seiner Verdienst im Feldzug gegen Ru?land und Preu?en 1813 ...Teilnehmer an der Stiftungsfeier des MCFVO am 4.April 1857"

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hi Alexandre,

here is one photo of von M?hl.

Christophe

Hello Christophe:

I love this photo! If you ever want to part with it, let me know.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello folks:

Actually, I didn't find anything particularly questionable about this piece. It seemed to me a well-worn original with the suspension loop broken off. Someone else thought this too, as it sold for a decent price!

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Chris:

Yes, this price does seem a bit on the steep side! The winner must be a hard-core Verdun/Douaumont collector, a collector of this regiment, or perhaps, this was the card of a relative???

I personally have always liked Sterbebildchen and believe that they are under-appreciated as collectibles.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Thierry:

As Vince pointed out, there are problems with this group.

The Togo campaign bars are without a doubt modern forgeries. As also pointed out by Vince, the ribbons look very bright and are probably modern. If you do not yet own this, my suggestion would be to not purchase it.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Rick:

Lot number 65 went to a very good and deserving home. It was a real sleeper that was probably one of the rarest items in the entire auction!

All will probably be made known by the fortunate party in the future.

Best regards,

"SPM"

question: how many of these were awarded? i understand they are somewhat scarce. i am considering attempting to find a suspension ring and ribbon for this example

Hello Eric:

There is no need to obtain a "suspension ring" as your piece is complete "as is". I believe that this is how these pieces were awarded.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Trevor:

In your posting you mention that the piece from the book "The Iron Time" is a "known original". I would caution you not to necessarily reach this conclusion without other supporting facts regarding pieces of this type.

Best regards,

"SPM"

To further my education of Imperial ODMs, Please tell me what the 2nd, 3rd & 4th medals are.

Doc

Hello Doc:

The 2nd medal is a Grand Duchy of Baden Military Karl Friedrich Merit Medal

The 3rd medal is a Grand Duchy of Baden Merit Medal in Silver on the Military Karl Friedrich Order/Medal ribbon.

The 4th award is a PRUSSIAN 15 Year Long Service Cross (for NCO's) on a Baden Long Service Award-type ribbon.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello folks:

This to me looks like a 1914 EKII core and frame. The core was probably altered on the Crown/"W"/"1914" side. The ribbon also looks like a WWI-era ribbon. The envelope (if not a counterfeit itself) could be for any piece of jewelry.

I would stay away from this one!

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Claudio:

Thank you for explaining the precidence of this Frackspange!

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Miguel:

This group is absolutely correct for a Sachsen Junior Officer.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Heureka! Heureka! Well, maybe heureka... it isn't even the correct ribbon but close - and made sense. Here on the sales, offered by hipnos...

I took his pictures as they'll dissapear from the sale room, but don't tell anyone I stole them...

Hello Everyone:

Note that this is NOT the correct ribbon for this medal. The original ribbon was white on one side and pale blue (Himmelfarb) on the other. This medal was also for a veteran's flag and was never worn by an individual as far as is known.

Best regards,

"SPM"