Schießplatzmeister

Hello Romanov Denis:

A very interesting grouping!

The EKII is of 1914-1918 era manufacture and has been altered by having the obverse ground down and re-finished in my opinion. It is therefore worthless (ie: damaged EKII).

It does appear to be on an old silk non-combatant type ribbon (which could be for a number of awards).

The RAO III by Friedlander looks to be gold and looks to be in perfect condition! This is the last type of RAO III awarded until ~1916.

To sum it all up, the RAO is the key piece of the group and the EK is sadly something that has been altered and was not part of the original group in my opinion.

Best regards,

"SPM"

There is an MVO list-or a potential one. What was his name?

perhaps we can track him down......

Pity he never had them all mounted-he'd be a one-man 20th century German history lesson.

By the way-a gold and a silver Anschluss medal, or is that a Sudeten one?

Hello Ulsterman:

I believe that the silver-coloured medal is the Austrian Anschlu?medaille, and the gold-coloured medal is the Sudentenland Anschlu?medaille.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello everyone:

Yes someone that visits this forum purchased this bar (not me).

It looks fine to me. The precidence is correct in my opinion, and all of the orders, crosses, medals, and bars look original to me.

The MVO III w/swords in gold alone is worth more I believe than was paid for the entire group!

Even if it is a "put together" bar, the parts are definately worth more than was paid.

"SPM"

I think its for NCOs i think war service counts double ? but not 100% ?

Hello Scott:

Yes, I believe that you are correct in that combat service time counted double when it came to tabulating an individual's service when considering award eligibility.

"SPM"

Just add a bot o' triva- wasn't there also a civil servant's long service medal??

Hello Ulsterman:

Oh yes, there are a great many Bavarian civil long-service decorations.

The group that you show however has a Bavarian Ludwig Cross on the left and a Bavarian Gold (or Bronze?) Agricultural Jubilee medal on the right (neither of which are true "long-service awards" in my opinion).

There was also a Luitpold Cross for 40 Years of civil service, and awards for gendarmerie service, fire brigade service, service in the army arsenals, and a Red Cross service award.

But, I believe that Alexandre was possibly more interested in the military long service awards, hence my response.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Schie?platzmeister,

Thx a lot for your infos...but one question stay im my mind....

I found this picture below in a auction site as Bavarian Service Distinction Cross 15 years, and the roman numbers shows realy 15 years... if this medal is not a Bavarian Service Distinction Cross , what kind of decoration is ????

Regards

Hello again Alexandre:

This is the 15 Year Service Cross for NCO's which was awarded after 1913.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Alexandre:

An excellent question:

Well, the answer is a bit complicated, but here is a brief outline:

Bavarian Long-Service Awards:

For Officers:

40 Year Cross (silver w/ blue enamel center elements)

24 Year Cross (two variations exist depending on the era of award, one dark bronze (earlier: pre-1906), and one bronze (often gilded), they are also different sizes I believe, with the earlier award being larger)

For NCOs/enlisted:

21 Year Clasp (prior to 1914) gilded with frame/15 Year Cross gilded finish(after 1914)

12 Year Clasp (prior to 1914) silver with frame/12 Year Medal gilded finish (after 1914)

9 Year Clasp (prior to 1914) iron with frame/9 Year Medal silver-coloured finish (after 1914)

For Reserve Officers:

20 Year Service Cross silver

For Reserve NCOs/enlisted:

2nd Class Landwehr Service Clasp (prior to 1914)/2nd Class Landwehr Service Medal copper/bronze finish (after 1914)

Note that there were also early 19th Century long-service veteran's awards for 40 and 25 years of service which pre-date the above.

Rick recently covered the Officer's crosses in a posting. There is a nice 40 Year Service Cross for sale by Cartoonman in the Sale Section.

My outline is a bit simplistic, but perhaps it will help answer your question.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Mark:

The entry is "6/4.18. Silb. Mil. Verd. Med." as far as I can determine.

So, this soldier was awarded the W?rttemberg Silver Military Merit Medal on April 6, 1918.

Best regards,

"SPM"

http://cgi.ebay.com/WW1-WWI-GERMAN-SANKE-M...%3A15|294%3A200

All pictures taken from the auction page:-

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2009/post-950-1232207822.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2009/post-950-1232207844.jpg

To my eyes the picture with the red background is NOT the same item as the PLM with Blue background

Kevin in Deva.

Hello again:

The piece shown on the website with the red background is of much better quality than the piece shown in the other photos (which is the one that I would imagine you would receive if you sent this fellow money!).

The piece with the red background looks rather familiar. I know that I have seen this image somewhere before.....? So, the photo is probably pirated.

Rather blatant bait and switch tactics.

What a load of nonesense regarding the various measurements, metals used, etc. Yes, there were variations, but for this period, there were only three (3), and this in NOT a genuine Wagner-made piece!

It is really sad that there is always someone out there ready to purchase such a piece believing it to be genuine!

"SPM"

Thank you Kev for warning the folks here on this forum!

Hello folks:

This is WITHOUT a doubt a modern forgery. The enamel work is horrid (notice how the enamel is flat and not properly contoured)! The eagles are not of the proper design (close though). The case is also a modern fantasy!

RUN away from this one!

I wouldn't want it if someone gave it to me!

Caveat emptor!

"SPM"

I wanted to post this for a long time, but I never found the right place.

It is not that special, but it is from my familiy, so it?s special to me (and not for sale btw.).

Like Schie?platzmeister noted it also has the "classic "Strassburg" and "An der Lisane" bars of the XIV A.K. (v. Werder)".

Can some of you refer me to some litereature of that chapter of german history? I?m willing to learn as much as I can about the 70/71 war, but I need a start.

Thx in advance.

You see that the bar has some corrosion, any advice on that. I alway read "do nothing, leave it like it is", but if it damages the bar in the end?

Hello Gutemuh:

There is the multi-volume Official History of the 1870-71 War which is available in its original German, and there are even English language reprints available from The Battery Press, Nashville. This is the "Bible" of the conflict which is very thorough.

For a less-detailed overview, there is the book in German and English (The Franco=German War) by v. Moltke which is readily available.

A book that I really love is "Der Krieg gegen Frankreich 1870-71" by Th. Lindner.

And of course, if this doesn't give you enough information, you can always look in the regimental histories of the Baden units covering the 1870-71 war period.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Steve:

Since it is very likely that this fellow received his long service award prior to 1913, and he was probably not an Officer, it is likely that he wore one of the custom enamelled long-service bars for NCO's/enlisted-men that was made with a ribbon ring. I have Prussian examples in my collection.

I'm sure that Saschaw can show you what one looks like. The question is, which one did he have? It is not possible to be 100% certain. Congratulations regarding this very nice bar!

I love these groups with the classic "Strassburg" and "An der Lisane" bars of the XIV A.K. (v. Werder)!

"SPM"

Hello Wildcard:

Thank you very much for finding the particulars regarding this outstanding group! It is good to see the image of it and see what else was there (it was a few years since I had seen it and I could not remember).

This was a fantastic group that Eric was very proud to own!

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello again Sascha:

I too would vote to leave this bar as it is!

Either the veteran or his family (after he passed-away) undoubtedly sewed the miniature medals to the bar. I would bet that he actually wore this thing this way in later years!

To mess with it would be a shame. To make it comform with regulation and statutes would take away from its historical significance in my opinion.

Happy New Year!

"SPM"

This is sure a heated and lengthy discussion about what are really just copies. They're not award pieces, they are copies, or in harsher words Fakes, regardless of whether or not a recipient wore any of these pieces. Who knows. Is the point here to document all the various copies of the PLM out there?

So von der Linde may have had a second piece, or third piece or pimped a different varient for each day of the week from each medals manufacturer, to me I really only care about the one placed around his neck when awarded. What was it, a Wagner or a Friedlander, pie or baroque, silver gilt or gold? Anything else is a copy.

Happy New Year.

Hello everyone:

I have been on the sidelines on this one, but though that I too had to now comment.

Daniel, I believe that the statement that you made muddies the water a bit. I would like to share my personal opinion (not that it was asked for, or anyone particularly cares regarding this). As a general thought regarding Imperial-era German Orders and medals, I believe that the word "fake" should not encompass genuine "deluxe-grade" pieces that were privately commissioned by recipients and better than awarded pieces in quality. I also believe that the word "fake" should not encompass replacement pieces actually worn by the recipient regardless of when they were made. Such pieces in my opinion are "copies" and are not to be confused with "fakes" which were never worn by recipients and were made to deceive collectors only. So, Komtur's piece is a "copy" and not a "fake" in my opinion.

So, this being said, a "copy" without solid provenance must in MOST (but perhaps not all) cases be regarded as a "fake" when it comes to PLM Order pieces encountered on the market.

This is a great discussion and some excellent points are being made!

A Happy New Year to all!

"SPM"

The bar is a bit messed with, I think we're going to fix that at some point. Still, the main medal is right and in it's right place: the engraved Felddienst-Auszeichnung for the actions in 1848, with exactly 50 medals awarded for the battles at "Freiburg", "Staufen", "Kandern" and "G?ntersthal". Four different engravings, and 50 is the total for all. Does anyone know another mounted piece? I have non seen by now...

Hello Saschaw:

WOW!!!!!

Congratulations to you and your father for owning such a rare and beautiful group (I don't care about the lack of enamel, gold, or silver)!

I only ever recall seeing one other group with a genuine engraved Felddienst-Auszeichnung. Many years ago, there was an 1870-71 Baden Officer's group for sale in a US auction. The OZL was missing from the group and the reverse of the group was not shown in the catalogue. The group didn't seem that significant and I didn't give it a second notice. Eric Ludvigsen was the winner of the lot in the auction. One day when I was visiting him, he showed me the reverse of the group! I nearly fell to the floor! The campaign medal was engraved! Unfortunately, I do not specifically remember which battle name was engraved on the medal, and unfortunately, I do not remember the exact awards (1870 EKII, OZL, Baden campaign medal with battle name engraved, 1870 campaign......??????)

After Eric passed-away I kept thinking that the group would surface in a Thies auction, but it never did. I do not know where it went, but there may be some members who visit this site that might know.

I have been checking the back of every Baden campaign medal that I see ever since seeing that group, but sadly no luck!

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello folks:

The top medal is a municipal firefighting medal (but what municipality I do not know).

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello again Chris:

Since "Alfons" is a rather common name, I am certain that there are probably a good many Gold and Silver medal recipients with this first name. A list could certainly be made-up with a bit of work, but without a last name, a unit, or a home-town, we will probably never be certain who this fellow is.

"SPM"

Hello Chris:

Well.....maybe! The ribbon is for a silver OR gold Tapferkeitsmedaille!

Do we have a last name?

Best regards,

"SPM"

Is this the silver bravery medal in "Your brother Alfons's" button hole?

Thanks

Chris

Yes Christophe, this is the same "seller". He is using the same passport image again on his seller's page.

"SPM"

Hi,

I think our man i s back. Not sure. So be careful

http://cgi.ebay.de/Preussen-Pour-le-Merite...A1%7C240%3A1318

Christophe

Hello again:

This criminal has indeed been removed from Ebay. I believe that he will return once again soon, so keep an eye out for him.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello all:

I see that this fellow had even added more listings! I filed a complaint (once again) with Ebay. It appears as though they have removed this individual's listings (until next time).

The fact that this fellow keeps returning to Ebay shows how pathetically poor their initial verification process is for opening an account.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello pinpon590:

The original case is black and rectagular with a flat top. On the outside of the lid is the crowned cipher "WR" (Wilhelm Rex) in gold blocking.

Here is a link to a photo on a commercial website which shows such a case:

http://www.derrittmeister.com/productpages/05987.htm

The case is very easy to find as it is the same as all of the other 3rd and 4th class Prussian Crown Order cases.

The Bavarian case is rather scarce, so if you buy the piece and don't want the case, please let me know as I may be interested.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Another question !

What is the good box ? Do you have any pictures ?

Bonjour de nouveau Pinpon 590:

Oui, ce cas est pour MVO bavarois. Le cas pour l'Ordre de Couronne prussien est beaucoup diff?rent. Ce cas bavarois est assez rare!

Salutations distingu?es,

"SPM"

Hello !

I will have more photos of the "genfer Kreuz" tomorrow or saturday...

...and more photos of the case.

But you say that the case is for a bavarian MVO, do you think it's not the good case for this order ? (or maybe I don't have understand what you want to say, excuse my poor english...)

It seems to have a mark on the side of the medallion, but just a "shallow round", not a jeweller's mark. He will try do do again a photo...

Thanks for help me !

Hello:

The cross looks genuine. It is impossible to tell regarding the "Geneva Cross" without high-resolution photos however.

The case is the best part of it!

The case is for a Bavarian MVO circa 1866-1880's? It is by Adam Hausinger. The case is probably worth more than the badge.

Best regards,

"SPM"