Schießplatzmeister

Hello Kevin:

The ribbon is a Bavarian MVK ribbon without a doubt! That is an interesting story regarding the work that his unit performed. Usually, I see some Bavarians that received W?rttemberg Bravery Medals, but this is a first.

A great photograph! Thank you for sharing it with us.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Kapitular:

A warm welcome to you! Thank you for joining us. It is nice to have you aboard. I'm certain that we will have many questions in the future that you can assist the membership in answering. Also, thank you for pointing out your excellent book regarding lifesaving medals to the membership here (For all of you who do not have this book it is a "MUST HAVE" addition to the library of any Imperial German medal collector).

Gru?,

"SPM"

Hello Mossop:

Congratulations regarding your acquisition!

From the photo, it is not possible to tell exactly what the cross is. However, logic would point to this probably being a Hannovarian 25 year service cross for Officers. So, I believe that minus any other supporting data, this is the only thing that makes sense.

If you provide his name, someone at this forum, could undoubtedly check to see if his awards are listed in any literature. I only have an 1849 ranklist (which I can check), but perhaps Wildcard, or some other folks, have an earlier one?

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Gents:

The photo of the reverse of the modern forgery 1870 EKI posted at the top of this article was stamped "DESCHLER..." by the forgers, but solder has covered portions of the stamping making it look like "RESCH".

Note that Resch of Vienna, Austria was a genuine maker of Orders and decorations at one time. There mark however was "Gebr. Resch" (for Gebr?der Resch/Resch Brothers).

This EK is a forgery in any guise, no matter what it is stamped (ligible or not!).

The seller started it at AU$800, but wouldn't take AU$1,100 for it later??? There were not bids due to poor auction timing???Yes, this makes perfect sense! (NOT!). No one bid on this because it is a modern FORGERY, and I hate to surmise that anyone may not tell the truth, but I don't think the "fellow in Japan" exists!

Caveat Emptor!

"SPM"

Hello Sam:

I saw this too! What a great grouping. If you post this in the Turkish section of the forum, there will be a number of folks there who will know the answer. Tim Tezer is an expert (he would never say that he is, but this IS the case) in this area and should be able to respond and help.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hallo militaria0815:

"Dienstauszeichnung des Hessischen Landesvereins vom Roten Kreuz f?r 10 Jahre treue Dienste".

Verleihungszeit? (nach 1918)

Gru?,

"SPM"

Hello Yankee:

I hope that all is well. I think that I have an unfair advantage as I know that you have what I think resides inside this case:

1) Kingdom of Hannover (or exile period)?

2) Ernst August Order?

3) Knight 1st Class?

Like I said, if I have this right, I had an unfair advantage!

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Jeff:

An interesting piece that you show for inspection. I think that you may have nailed this one already. It is not an official award and will not appear in H&S or any other reference regarding official awards as far as I know.

Best regards

"SPM" (An old friend who visited you at the American Legion hall show many years ago in San Antonio when we were both in Texas)

Hello All:

The War Honor Cross looks like it was possibly harshly cleaned to remove rust (I think that I see pitting on the right arm of the cross). Of course these crosses are usually found struck in steel which was bronzed. Thus, the strange look of the cross (the shiny steel can be seen showing in places through the matte bronze finish). Such corrosion would be consistent with the "lovely" zinc oxidation bloom that has infected the backing plate. This group was probably stored in someone's basement for a few years after Opa went to Valhalla.

Best regards,

"SPM"

p.s.: Oh yes, I see rust spots on the War Honor Cross ribbon. This group was definately exposed to a bit of moisture!

Hello again Troy:

Sorry, sometimes my command of the English language suffers a bit!

I meant to convey that the medal was not an awarded example. This item would have been purchased by the recipient of an awarded medal as an extra piece to wear on his mounted medal group, or to replace a lost original, for example. The piece is a "copy", but it is something that was made during the period in which a recipient of the official medal lived. It therefore has collectable value (although perhaps a little less than that of an officially-awarded medal).

I hope that this clarifies the situation.

Congratulations on owning an interesting piece of history!

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Mike:

Everything that Komtur is telling you about this piece is correct.

It is certainly not an awarded piece. It would commonly pass at Militaria shows/Ebay as a "1920's-1930's wearing copy". The quality is certainly not up to what I would think that a piece from even that era should exibit. In my opinion (everyone has one don't they), this piece is probably a post-1945 copy made to deceive collectors.

My advice would be to pass on it, unless you purchase it as a copy at a price which would be reasonable for such a copy.

Good luck with whatever you decide!

"SPM"

Hello Troy:

Your medal is a non-officially awarded period copy of the 1870-1871 medal. It therefore does not have the "made from captured cannon" impression aroud the rim.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello again:

Upon further study, it also appears that the Albert Order is hanging a bit low. Whatever was on the clip in this position at one time was not as high!

SPM

Hello Stogieman:

This group is unusual in that the Albert Order 1st Class with Crown and Swords (a relatively high order awarded to Officers with the rank of Major, Hauptmann, and Oberstleutnant, etc.) seems to have been paired with a Second Class Landwehr Long Service Award. This is a highly unlikely combination, so it is likely that the group is not original, although the components appear to be.

Best regards,

"SPM"

With regard to prinzen pieces, I think that they were created mainly to be worn in groups and of course on uniforms; as opposed to miniatures which, as far as I know, were never worn on uniforms. Below is what I would consider a prinzen Red Eagle 4th class which measures 27.04 mm x 27.02 mm. Please, for now, let?s not get into ?reduction? pieces.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

Hello Wildcard:

Thank you for your astute observations regarding these pieces and the very fine examples shown. I especially like the group with the RAO/SEHO!

You are absolutely correct of course, miniatures were never worn in uniform, so, the manner of wear, and not the size, dictates what a piece really was (i.e.: "miniature", "Prinzen", or "reduction"). Further, as you pointed out, an 18mm, 20mm, or larger example could be worn as a miniature when out of uniform. I personally really like the "Prinzen" or "reduction" pieces.

Hello again Henke:

It is difficult to be certain regarding the manufacturer of a 4th Class RAO badge of the last type if the piece is not marked. There were simply too many manufactures to be certain. Also, I find it probable that each firm had more than one employee who painted RAO centers, so even within a firm, there were probably very slight eagle variations. Each piece is truly a work of art! I will point out however, that our very own Medalnet has done a superb job in comparing examples of the eagles of 3rd Class RAO badges by manufacturer on his website.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello again Henke:

You already identified the maker of the other cross as J. Godet u. Sohn of Berlin. Godet was one of the major House-Jewelers for Prussia. The quality of their wares was always excellent.

You are right, these are 4th Class Red Eagle Order crosses of the "last" type. This type has stippled arms and was awarded from approximately 1879-1890 to 1918. There were probably tens of thousands of these awarded, I have never seen an exact number listed. There were also numerous firms that made these badges.

Your pieces are especially nice. The badge with the case and paper carton is wonderful. These paper cartons were usually thrown away by the recipient. The miniature by Godet is also very nice. It appears as though it may be a "Prinzen" piece. Most of these were not really for Princes, but were deluxe-grade miniatures for wear. Standard miniatures were 16mm in size. Anything 20mm or larger, and smaller than a full-sized badge, could be considered a Prinzen piece. The Godet Prinzen pieces are real gems. What are the dimensions of your pieces?

Congratulations on owning these wonderful examples. Pieces like these have been commanding rather healthy prices on the market as of late.

Friendly greetings from the USA!

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hi & Thanks

I was curious about the age and the makes of these 2 crosses. When it comes to the age it looks like they are both "newer" versions since they have pebbled arms. Then with your help I now know the maker of one of them. But still curious the find the maker of the other one if that is possible.

Best Regards

Henke

Hello Henke:

Greetings to you. What would you specifically like to know about your pieces? Perhaps I can be of some assistance. By the way, "J.H.W." stands for jeweler J.H. Werner of Berlin.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Paul:

The Johanniter badges were always worn on the left side of the tunic under the pocket. For field wear the linen crosses were usually worn. There were pin-backed badges however which were also worn. These are most-commonly seen in silver.

A pin-backed award for the right-side could be for many 3rd Reich badges as already stated. Another possibility from the Imperial era would be an Iron half-moon (or TKM). I'm sure that there are a great many other foreign awards which could be worn in that position.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Kevin:

Thanks for posting this item. It is without a doubt a modern creation. My guess is that it was made within the last ten (10) years or so. This is a modern forgery meant to deceive collectors. Fortunately, some very key details are lacking to make it resemble an original. Beware, there are VERY good copies out there that have been accepted as originals in some highly acclaimed recent publications.

Caveat Emptor!

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Les:

I could not have said it better myself!

Your words: "When a relatively scarce item shows up, caution is always advisable. When more than one or two of the same scarce item start turning up....it's time to take a very hard look at that "rare" item." are pearls of wisdom.

Thanks Les for the great advice.

"SPM"

Hello Les:

Was this the "Russian-made" piece with crowned woodpeckers between the arms in gold offered for ONLY $5,000 (buy-it now) by a fellow in Dallas?

When these first came out (many years ago!) I think they fooled a few folks. Now, not a chance, as those who are smart enough to properly research what they collect have many sources of good information available (this site, other web pages, books, etc.).

I hope that some poor fellow didn't buy it! It might be worth about $100 or so for the scrap value, but not a lot more.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello again Rick:

For the first type:

The size is only listed as 34.4mm (it would therefore seem that they only varied by thickness, but there were probably other sizes)

3 Mark (14.62g)

4-1/2 Mark (21.93g)

6 Mark (29.24g)

9 Mark (43.86g)

For the second type:

3 Mark (14.5g) 30.0mm

4-1/2 Mark (22.0g) 34.8mm

6 Mark (29.5g) 38mm

7-1/2 Mark (36.5g) 40.2mm

9 Mark (44.0g) 42mm

12 Mark (58.5g) 42mm

As you can see the prize was equivalent to currency at the time and had a real "monetary" value.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Rick:

A very nice shooting medal indeed!

These were official State awards. They were "Schie?preismedaillen" (shooting prize medals) of the War Ministry. They were awarded from 1818 until 1894. They were awarded in various sizes in silver. The first awards were made to the three best shots at Bataillon level. The larger the size, the higher the award.

The piece that you show has the die-sinker's mark "E. WEIGAND FEC." for Emil Weigand (*1837-+1906). It was either struck from June 1883 to May 1887 or from March 1884 until July 1887 (there are two similar die variations where the reverse die changed and I cannot tell them apart from the information that I have).

Some of the pieces are extremely rare, and some of them are very common depending on the coinage. These pieces were awarded as "table medals". The piece that you have has had a suspension loop added by the recipient. This was common as they were usually turned into watch chain fobs by the recipients.

These pieces were thoroughly covered in an article by Lothar Tewes "Die preu?ischen Milit?rschie?preismedaillen von 1818-1894" in "Beitr?ge zur Brandenburgisch/Preussischen Numismatik, Numismatisches Heft 1998, Nr. 5".

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello CCJ:

I hate to cause more confusion, but I vote that this is probably a counterfeit piece. My advice (not that you asked) would be to stay away from it and move on to another piece.

Best of luck!

"SPM"

Dear Claudio:

Congratulations on the acquisition of this excellent group! It is one of the nicest groupings that I have seen come on the market in awhile. Although a few other pieces may have "gotten away", you obtained the majority of the items.

It is a shame that the auction house did not offer it as one big lot. Auction houses are businesses though and of course they exist to make money. By splitting up the items, they maximize their profit. Also, at today's prices, very few of us could afford to purchase the entire offering at once!

Unfortunately, complete groupings like this will become less and less common (or non-existant) over time due to this phenomenon.

It is nice to see that someone who appreciates the history behind the items obtained most of them. It is a shame that the rest were scattered to the wind (as time marches forth, the history is faded away).

Best regards,

"SPM"