Schießplatzmeister

That is not correct. Godet's toolings were never changed. Godet used the same toolings during the end of WWI and made silver gilt pieces as well.

Hello Medalnet:

You are of course correct regarding Godet pieces. I was referring to Wagner-made awards (the style of award which started this thread). Sorry for the confusion caused by my comment!

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello folks:

Again, a forgery!

Note that baroque type badges were made before 1917. 1914-1916 issued badges (made in gold of course) also had baroque suspensions.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Dear Yankee:

I have a MVO II w/swords in silver-gilt made be Weiss & Co. The piece is marked "WC 950" on the scrollwork, and "WC 900" on the swords. In my estimation, the piece was manufactured in 1917 or 1918.

Best regards,

"SPM"

p.s.: Oh, yes, I forgot to mention that the MVO cases NEVER mention "swords" or show a depiction of swords on the case lid (as far as I know). "With crown" IS mentioned on cases for badges with a crown however.

WOW!

Rick:

Thanks for the very thorough data. I am convinced now that the bar has possibly been fooled with. This is surely a fascinating topic!

Best regards,

"SPM"

Thanks Rick!

It is nice to know the background regarding this information. Eric had sent me typewritten! excerpts at times regarding specific awards. I always marvelled at his encyclopedic mind. If I ever know a quarter of what he knew I will be well off! He never failed to amaze me. If one mentioned a new acquisition while speaking to Eric, a few weeks later in the mail would come a typewritten letter expertly detailing the exploits and other awards of the recipient.

Thank you Rick (and others) for carrying on the tradition so that all of this great historical information is not lost forever and so that the labor of those who are now gone was not in vain.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Dear Yankee:

You posed and interesting question regarding Weiss and Co. badges. Yes, a badge with swords was marked on the scrollwork AND on the swords. I will have to look at a piece in my collection when I am home to give you specifics.....stay tuned!

"SPM"

Hello Rick:

Thank you for all of the great information!

So, if I understand correctly, no known awards of the RAO on the life-saving ribbon were made to civilians pre-1913, and the normal award to an NCO pre-1913 would have been the AEM on a life-saving ribbon.

This is an interesting mystery to be sure!

Best regards,

"SPM"

p.s.: Rick, Eric was a friend of mine. I never did ask him where he got these listings of Prussian awards. Do you know what the original source was?

Hello everyone:

Medalnet, congratulations on obtaining this beautiful bar!

Rick is correct, the MEII "should" have been mounted first, but I have seen enough groups to know that the rules were not always followed for a variety of reasons.

The RAOIV was typically awarded to civilians. Therefore Medalnet's theory holds merit. I believe that the bar may have been "added to" by the civilian (i.e. he extended his military service bar and added the life-saving awards after he had retired from military service). Medalnet, can you see under the backing? If the bar was extended, and the man was a civilian, he probably didn't care about official precident as he was out of the service and the life-saving awards mattered more to him. He may have been a pensioner by the time the awards were made and was on a budget and didn't want to pay to have the bar properly re-mounted.

The bar looks as right as can be to me [original ribbons, original awards (old MEII copy), and best of all, genuine DSWA bars!]. It looks like nothing has been messed with on this bar and I would not hesitate to buy it from Medalnet for what he paid plus a bit!

Best regards,

"SPM"

p.s.: Medalnet, you broke the rule (you didn't show us the reverse of the group). Could you post a photo/scan of the reverse of the group? It may provide more clues!

Hello David:

Sorry, v. Karcher is not listed as receiving a RAO 2nd in Klenau's book.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Absolutely correct! I don?t know how I missed this. I wish that I had noticed this while George was alive; we might have the answer as to the purpose of the rivets.

Thanks Red Eagle

Dear Wildcard:

As Medalnet alluded to, the rivets hold the gold (in this case) cross arms to the silver body of the star. I have a French-made star which just has pieces of wire soldered to the back of the cross arms which go through holes in the star body and are bent over to hold the cross arms to the cross (a lot more crude than rivets!).

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Kyokashinkai:

The piece is a better-quality forgery, but not the best quality forgery that is available. Don't bid, save your money for something else!

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hi Schie

Many many thanks pointing to country of origin, with that case it threw me a loop. I noticed the Bavarians too like having trifold ribbons perhaps copying the Austrian style but it was not consistent. I guess it was up to the individual wearer how he choose his style of ribbon mounting. Actually the order fits rather well inside, ribbon does reach the edge ( if I extend it ) I have two other Rothe cases also with gold emboss crowns, that are foreign awards but the inside lids are marked Rothe. Perhaps Rothe just supplied the cases to the German manufacturer that is why they are not marked. I've noticed the early made knight badges have a wide arm and the gold sometimes is red/brown tint. Perhaps different gold standards back then. Should any of the 1st model or 2nd model gold badges be hallmarked? I know with the Kingdoms generally are but many of the Duchies don't seem to mark their orders in any way. Thanks for all your help.

Sincerely

Yankee

Dear Yankee:

Remember too, that in W?rttemberg the custom of wearing triangular ribbons was popular too. So, basically the Austrian-style was at times popular in the southern German States.

You are right about the red-tint gold. The earlier badges were of higher content gold alloy. Usually, at least 750 gold (750/1000 or 75% if you will). The red colour was made by alloying copper with the gold resulting in a reddish/pink color. This is commonly known as "rose gold". Order jewelers sometimes used yellow gold and rose gold for different parts of the same order badge to provide a beautiful contrast.

Hallmarks on any SEHO badges are unusual in my experience (however limited). Rod's Knight 2nd w/ swords is the only piece that I have record of being marked. I own a gold Commander's grade badge from the mid-19th century and it has no markings, and my Knight 1st in gold from the late 19th century has no markings either. Of course, most stars (jewels) were marked. Good deduction on your part regarding markings on badges. The official Order Jewelers for Prussian, Bavarian, and Saxon Orders at least usually marked their pieces, whereas the smaller States did not as often.

I have never owned or held for inspection any 1st type gold badges, but I do not recall ever seeing markings listed when these pieces come up for auction.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Dear Rod:

The pieces are forgeries meant to deceive collectors in my opinion. They are not "wearing copies", etc. etc. They are garbage in my opinion and I wouldn't want them if they were given to me (a genuine 1914 EKII has more value to me!).

Save your money for now. You will need at least $25,000 for a genuine PLM if one comes up for sale on the open collector's market. There are genuine pieces out there, but most are in well-established collections. The genuine item just doesn't pop-up on Ebay.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Dear Yankee:

Thank you for the scans of your wonderful Knight 2nd Class badge. It is definately a German-made piece in my opinion. It is of superb quality. The ribbon is a typical Saxon-style tri-fold (also the ONLY way that Austrians wore their awards). The Saxons often utilized this style of wear, but not always. The ribbon of course is an old silk original. A perfect piece!

The case looks Austrian to me, but for which award and which manufacturer, is anyone's guess. I do not believe that they really go together. Does the badge fit in the nest properly?

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hi Rick

The maker's mark (E E) (along with 925) is located on the left inside rim of the bottom cross arm which is drawn into two points (left and right).

Hope I have not over complicated my description.

Rod

Dear Rod:

Please see the listing for the Red Eagle Order 1st Class star. There is a photo of an "FR" mark in a rhombus that is a post-1918 Rothe mark. Does your "EE" mark look anything like this?

Thanks,

"SPM"

Hello Yankee:

An excellent question! Good news! Although I don't know how many pieces Rothe made, I do know that they made them.

From the collection/auction of my dearly departed friend Eric Ludvigsen is an example that will make you a believer. Please refer to Thies Auction No. 26 April 22, 2005 lot 1239 (page 137). It is a silver-gilt Sachsen-Weimar-Eisenach Order of the White Falcon knight's badge (reverse side w/ trophy of arms) in a typical Austrian case (rounded bottom) by Rothe & Neffe, Wien. The piece is marked by Rothe & Neffe and has a post-1864 silver mark. Although not an SEHO, it shows the wide variety of pieces that they made. Does your badge have any markings (suspension ring area?).

I now refer to another example from Eric's collection. See Thies Auction No. 28 December 10, 2005 lot 403 (page 236). Pictured is a SEHO Commander's badge in silver-gilt with gold medallions. Thies describes this piece as an Austrian or French manufactured piece from 1880-1900. The bust on the obverse medallion is a separate piece.

Although Rothe made a lot of terrible quality copies after 1918, their older workmanship was always superb. I do not think that it would be an exageration to say that they probably manufactured just about every major German States Order prior to 1918. These pieces, although technically "copies" are usually of superb quality and much more difficult to find than standard-issue German-made pieces. They are under-appreciated currently.

I hope that this helps more than it confuses!

Best regards,

"SPM"

Dear Rod:

Congratulations on obtaining a very nice piece! I can't tell from the photo if the body of the piece is made of silver (2nd Class) or gilded silver (1st Class). Remember that silver sometimes has a "straw" coloured patinae and that the gilding on some pieces is very light. So, the answer is not always obvious. I have not seen another piece that was marked before (very interesting).

"925" is not common as a pre-1918 German content mark. Since the center is gold, this is most likely an early WWI piece. These badges were also made by Order jewelers in States other than Saxon States and in Countries other than Germany.

You are correct, the "S" hilt swords are called "French" style sometimes. The other type of hilt is commonly referred to as the "Roman" type. A collector friend once told me that he thought that the "French"-hilted pieces were Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha awards. I have found no compelling reason to make rhyme or reason of the sword-hilt types one way or the other at this point. So, if anyone has any wisdom to share, please reveal it now! If the E. E. denotes Hofjuwelier Eberhardt in Altenburg, then obviously, my friend's theory was not correct!

The badges of this Order are truly beautiful! Congratulations regarding a nice acquisition!

Best regards,

"SPM"

I have a SEHO knight's cross with swords.... second class, marked 925 silver, real gold center and stated as "unissued". Maker marked EE (E. Eberhardt from Altenburg).

Would someone speculate if this is a replacement item (post 1918) or one that was issued up into

1934 by the "Duke"?

I would lean more towards a replacement item because of the swords.

Thanks,

Rod

Dear Rod:

An interesting question that you pose. Could you post a photo of your piece? Do the swords have "bow-tie" hilts or "S" hilts. I have heard a variety of theories regarding the reason for the difference and your piece could spark some interesting discussion. By the way, "swords-on-ring" for these badges would denote a private award by the Duke in the 1930's (he was an NSDAP sympathizer).

Best regards,

"SPM"

Dear Michael:

Regarding the configuration of the SEHO reverse center, the band of rue arcs from the 10:00 o'clock position to the 4:00 o'clock position in the center (I am sure that this is what you meant to write). A badge with the band in another position has merely been knocked about. These pieces are separately pinned in the center and can easily move if handled roughly.

As mentioned above, no shamrocks here! The leaves represent rue leaves which were (and still are by some I guess) thought to have powerful medicinal properties during the middle-ages.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello again Medalnet:

More on the "incredible offer" e-mail. My guess is that they got my contact information through the BDOS on-line membership listing since that information is public (and since they wrote in German in the first paragraph). They are not primarily English-speaking (per their word usage/grammer). They probably are not primarily German-speaking either??? I possibly smell former com-block scammers at work.

Caveat Emptor!

"SPM"

Hello Medalnet:

I just received the e-mail below. It is interesting that they didn't sign their name! There is just an e-mail address. It seems as though they have everything that a collector could possibly want. I bet they have great items for sale for cheap prices. I send them payment via Western Union, and wait, and wait, and wait, ........and eventually receive nothing. I think not!

"Hello:

Ich biete deutsche Auszeichnungen/Insignien, Helme und Bajonetts/Daggers an (WK1 und WK2). All die Gegenst?nde sind originell und in gutem Zustand. Ich verkaufe sie zu einem sehr g?nstigen Preis.

I have some German Insignia/Medals from WWI and WWII and a few German helmets from WWI and WWII in a good condition. There are also German daggers. I have also a few bayonets and swords for sale: japanese arisaka, and three french bayonets: Chassepot, Grass and Lebel. I would like to sell them for a reasonable price. I also have a japanese swords (katana and tanto) with the blade from XVIII century. If you could have an interest, let me know.

Regards."

It seems as though there are possibly some criminals at work targeting collectors! Folks, let me know if anyone else gets this one!

Best regards,

"SPM"

WOW!!!!

Now I have something else to look for!

Nice work Rick!

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello again:

After checking a source in my library (and refreshing my memory about a detail regarding known originals) I am pleased to anounce that the star itself is original without a doubt!

I do not have a source showing the oak-leaf attachment on known pieces, but believe that this feature is also proper judging by the workmanship and quality.

Thanks,

"SPM"

Hello folks:

The RAO Star w/ oak leaves looks good to me! I don't believe that it is post-1918. In fact it looks like a late 1800's star with gold (not gilt) applied cross arms. The rivets are correct and I don't have a problem with the oak leaf attachment (look at the nut, it looks like period workmanship). The oak leaves also appear to be gold.

My vote is that it is probably good. This seller has sold some great pieces lately, and I think that this is no exception.

Watch the sale price on this one!

I do not believe that the case belongs to the star however.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Stogieman:

Unfortunately, I don't know where the bar is, so I can't contribute in this regard.

The SHRK is made of gold and is an awarded piece of Freedom-War (Napoleonic War) vintage. Very nice and not found on the market too often! I'm still looking for one myself!

I can see why the piece disappeared so fast!

Best regards,

"SPM"