Schießplatzmeister

Hello all:

I know some of the history of this group prior to the year 2000 and personally inspected it many years ago. In the 1970's it was a featured sale item of Ernst Blass. The RAO III. with Crown is a horrid quality bronze-gilt "spangenstuck" if I remember correctly. All of the ribbons appear to be old however. Although impressive looking, somewhat of a mystery to all who have ever owned it.

Best regards

Hello everyone:

This type of cross is 100% correct. These cast iron crosses (your pieces should be magnetic) with "Roman" sword crossguards were issued for the 1870-71 conflict and often appear on groups of this era. These pieces with "Roman" crossguards were defiantely not jeweler's variations. The pieces with the more ornate sword crossguards are of a later manufacture. If I recall correctly it has been speculated that none of the later types were actually awarded (it seems that they were certainly not awarded during the 1914-1918 era). Eric Ludvigsen knew what he was talking about (always).

It seems also that many of these Oldenburg pieces (which are rather scarce) seem to have been discovered by Canadian units towards the end of WWII. There were a few in a collection in the UK a few years back.

Due to these pieces being cast iron, you will probably not be able to find a craftsman (or craftswoman) to repair the sword grips properly. Many pieces on groups have the sword grips broken off. I would leave the piece "as is" it it were mine.

Congratulations regarding the addition of this nice piece to your collection!

ps: Oh yes, Wildcard, I remember the Mertens medal well!

Hi Dave,

I cannot disagree with any of the points that you raise. As a matter of fact, with all due respect to Eric, I think that your suggestion that the Roman style example might be a jeweler’s variation makes a lot of sense. There are a couple of additional points that I would like to pass on.

1. The example that I posted above actually comes from a medal bar of what I would call “the early period”. See below.

2. In volume 2 of the Klingbeil Collection (Theis edition) there is a second class cross with Roman a style cross guard (#1366) along with a similar third class example (#1370).

3. In the only copy of the statutes of this order that I have,, which is undated, all illustrated insignia with swords have the Baroque style cross guards.

Nothing definitive but some more pieces to the puzzle.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

Congratulations David!

A wonderful website and a very interesting topic. Good luck with the publication of a book on this subject. I believe that there will be a healthy interest in such a publication.

Best regards

If you saw a ribbon bar with this combination, how would you interpret it?

Hello Dave:

I would interpret it as being a bit strange. A pre-Hindenburg Cross group/field ribbon bar to a Bavarian recipient would usually (but not always) have the MMJO/TKM ribbon first, then the MVO/MVK ribbon, and then the EKII ribbon, etc., etc.

That being said, there are three possibilities in my opinion:

1) Bavarian Officer who was a MMJO Knight recipient and MVO IV w/Swords recipient.

2) Bavarian NCO who recived the TKM and who then received a field promotion to Officer and then recived the MVO IV w/Swords (more likely statistically).

3) Bavarian NCO who received the TKM and the MVO,MVK II w/Swords (most likely statistically).

I believe that someone who has the Sachsen-Meiningen roll book could sort this one out without too much difficulty. There could not have been too many Bavarians with the Sachsen-Meiningen War Merit Cross or War Merit Medal.

On another note: Dave, I am glad that you are back. I really miss your Military Max Joseph Order website. Is there any chance of it ever returning?

Best regards

Hi,

Indeed, the classic markings as you have on your site.

You can bet there is a huge desire to "clean" and see how much of the finish remained, but this has been in a box since WW2, until the guy I know picked it up about 4 years ago... even then he considered cleaning and was told "finger weg!"... and I have resisted the temptation as well.

best

Chris

Hello Chris:

Yes, cleaning this piece is not advisable as the plating is extremely thin. If you clean it, any trace of the gilding will undoubtedly disappear.

Best regards

So for a year or so after the war they reassesed cases and made a small amount of catch up awards.

It is the case with "my guy"...

Take into account the following... the unit (BRIR22)is hastily formed with guys from all over, sent into battle, he does his action, the officer he saves is then gone, he gets wounded a few weeks later and leaves the unit as well. The BRIR22 continues its war and forgets he ever existed... he is in hospital, then goes to another regiment on another front... drops through the cracks in the floorboards for all intents and purposes...

In 1919 it may have been that the officer he saved said.."hey... did Riethmann ever get a medal for what he did?"

now here is a question for a champion... by 1919 the officers would have seen all kinds of acts, bravery, citations etc... would they now be stricter and more objective (ie. raising the bar) than the awards made at the beginning of the war?

From the handful of "catch-up" awards it does not seem like they lowered the bar...

Best

Chris

Although not a "champion" by any stretch of the imagination (just ask my wife), from what evidence I have seen, there were probably very few post-1918 TKM awards. I imagine that several factors influenced this. It is probable that there were a multitude of applications right after 1918 for awards which were not made during the War. In addition to an influx of applications received "all at once", the military and government apparatus for processing such award applications was undoubtedly decimated and in a chaotic state. Also, the funds for such awards were undoubtedly no longer as easily available. It is my opinion that only in "exceptional" cases were retroactive awards made. The award document to Schwartz is the ONLY post-1918 award document that I have every seen (and I have been paying attention to these documents for awhile now).

So, my vote is that the "bar" was actually raised.

Best regards

Here is that award document the Schießplatzmeister is referring to. This was bestowed to Redenbach, dated April 1, 1915 and countersigned on April 9, 1915.

What is very interesting to this specific discussion is the next award document, also for Redenbach's Gold Bravery Medal but dated October 1918. It describes the actions he took to earn the award back in November 1914.

Hello:

No, actually, I was referring to the provisional award document to Georg Schwartz dated October 24, 1919 which appears later in the book on page 149. His citation document is also shown which was dated November 20, 1925. He was awarded the silver TKM on October 24, 1919 for actions on April 21, 1918 and on June 9, 1918. This is proof that TKM awards actually did continue after the cessation of hostilities.

Best regards

... ok... this is it... until someone starts to beg.....

Ple..........................se! Ple.............................se! Pretty Ple..............se!

Does the EKI have a "square-shaped" punch mark on the reverse center?

Here is a question for a champion....

Medal bar with EK 2, Gold Bravery, MVK2nd class with swords and crown, Hindenburg, Service medal... Missing on the bar is the Gold bravery medal, it must have been a real gold one as it was an early 1915 issue. Seperate with it is an official issue gold plated silver one (the later war one with "1000" and crescent). This is mint and on a long ribbon (ie. probably "as issued").

Also with it EK1, wound badge, 25 year Beamten service cross.

The man was in the LW in WW2, and was killed in an air raid during the war. I assume a beamter, and junior grade officer or senior NCO in WW2.

Medals from the family, in a box since the war...

So, now the question...

What could have happed to the real gold medal? And why an official "Ries" later war award piece loose with it?

1) If the family had flogged the pure gold medal to buy vodka.. why bother to get an official gold plated silver one to replace it? Expensive and NOT easy to find. I find this very unlikely.

2) Did the man himself sell the gold one and get himself a later wartime one?

3) Was there a drive for scrap gold and dutiful soldiers gave in their gold and got a silver one?

4) He seems to have worn the bar in the 1930s... the Gold plated one is in almost perfect nick though...

I have no doubts this is kosher direct from the son, who had it in a box and has had little to do with it since the war...

So... where did it go?

Hello Chris:

A great group! Congratulations!

I believe that the silver-gilt medal was the only medal received by the soldier. There were often severe delays in processing recommendations for awards due to a variety of factors (hospital recovery, POW, etc.) as mentioned by Paul. The action may have happened in 1915, but the award itself was probably presented in 1916 (or 1917 or 1918). If the actual award document existed, it would show when the actual award was processed for presentation. As you know, these official silver-gilt medals are much scarcer than the gold medals.

It is possible that awards were made after 1918 (citation documents from the 1920's exist) just like post-war MMJO awards. Most citation documents were prepared in 1918 if I recall correctly. The 1920's citations may be official replacements however and may not indicate a late award. I believe that I may have seen an actual 1919 award document, but I will have to research this further (I believe that a photo may exist in O'Connor's book, Volume 1).

It is also possible (as you mentioned) that soldiers were given the option to "trade-in" their gold medals for silver-gilt medals to help the war effort and show their patriotism. I have not seen literature regarding this, but I do know of certain non-wartime awards for which a recipient could trade in their gold medal for a newer-issue (non-gold).

Best regards

I can....

Hello Chris:

I have two (2) theories:

1) Double exposure of film (most likely explanation).

2) Shot made through glass which had a reflection on it???

Best regards

I think it is Dallwitz.... look at the U in Haupt and Grünberg...

Hello Chris:

Yes, I think that you are correct! After looking through ranklists, etc., the name "Dallwitz" does appear several times. The name "Dauwitz" does not. I have not found this General yet. I will keep looking a bit more.

Best regards

Hi, I just got this photot in the mailbox , but I cant find anything about a General von Dallwitz ?

Nor in my Rank lists or on the net ....

Could anyone have some info about him or any other officers on the pic ?

Bad Altheide is in Poland so I suppose this should be on the Eastern front 1917

The seller wrote " Gen Dallwitz with Flieger Offiziers"

Christer

Hello Christer:

It looks like General von "Dauwitz" is possibly written and maybe not "Dallwitz".

Best regards

Hello again:

Again these are also not "researchable" as to specific recipients.

Best regards

Hello:

If you mean by "research" that the name of the specific individuals who were awarded these awards can be found without other supporting documentation, the answer is "no". Based upon the awards present however, other types of information can be guessed (ie.:type of unit, possible rank of recipient, etc.).

Best regards

Looking at this again, the cross definitely isn't a MVO - the bottom arm appears more flat rather than as the two-pointed arms on the MVO. The last medal still looks like a Wuerttemberg Dienstauszeichen to me...(could officers receive this?). Could the second cross be a Friedrichsordern?

Hello:

This is definately a Friedrichsorden with swords. It is a 2nd Class in my opinion. The third award is probably a Württemberg Landwehr DA 2. Klasse. So, your fellow is a Württemberg reserve Officer.

A very nice photo! Congratulations.

Hi all,

I would have a chance to buy Saxony War Merit Cross but I don't have idea about the value - online places where I spot this award their are marked as sold.

Can you guys please advise quickly, what would be the fair market price for that cross? Hopefully I can make then reasonable offer to the owner.

Kind Regards,

Timo

(picture from medal medaille web page SOLD section)

Hello Timo:

There are two (2) available at eMedals for US$240 and US$275 currently. You may be able to find one for US$75-US$150 if you are patient and willing to wait awhile. Ebay.de would be a good place to buy one.

Best regards

Good morning Gents

I was looking through the AWM collection online and found this little bar (amongst others) which may be of interest....although I have a feeling the EK2 has been replaced. What are your thoughts on this? The Prussian Merit Cross seem to be original to it, given its sewn internally to the ribbon, and the thread used seems to be quite aged in keeping with the rest of the bar.

Here is the AWM description of the Merit Cross:

Description: First Class version of the award mounted in the Prussian parade mount style. On the obverse is the Prussian Crown and the entwined initials 'WR'. On the reverse is written 'Kriege Verdienst' which translates to 'war service'. The medal is fitted with a loose ring suspender. The ribbon features a broad central black band bordered by two narrower white bands with narrow black band edges.

cheers

Jas

Hello Jason:

I hope that everything has dried out a bit now in your area and that all is well.

The first award is a Prussian "Militär-Ehrenzeichen 1. Klasse" (Military Honor Award 1st Class). I believe that it is the proper award on this group most likely. A very rare group to a colonial soldier or marine!

Thank you for sharing this item with us.

Best regards

Thank you gentlemens !

Yes, an unique design, quite modern I think !

Does someone have reference book specifying number of award (even approximate) of this nice cross ? Or are the records defenitively lost ?

And what about initials : more I watch them, more I'm convinced of it's MA... and not MF (as Alec A. Purves is saying in his book The Medals Decorations & Order of the Great War)

Hello:

Klietmann and Scharfenberg do not list any award totals in their expert works regarding the awards of Anhalt. It therefore seems that the answer is unknown. There could not have been many awards in any case.

Best regards

Greetings all

I posted this grouping over on another form (more ww2 based), one German fellow in particular was implying the swords on this award were fake and a later add on. I totally disagree and took detailed photos and also took the piece to a manufacturing Jeweller who advised the swords were die struck and integral to the piece and not soldered on.

I accept it is not an awarded cross but a later private purchase.

It has a tiny maltese cross stamped on the ring, the jeweller spotted this under a 20x magnification.

He also gently cleaned the cross (see last image) as the sword handles had discoloured. It was cleaned via an electrical bath system that they use instead of abrassive mehtods.

The grouping is an indirect vet purchase

I would appreciate an opinion from members of this Forum.

cheers

Mike

Hello again Mike:

I must add that the swords on this piece appear to be cast and not die-struck (without direct inspection however there is no way to be 100% certain). These swords are definately NOT integral to the cross body. On original pieces, they were added to the cross body by the utilization of threaded screw posts. On this piece, they may be screwed in place, but this is unlikely. On the identical piece that I owned they were definately soldered into place.

Best regards

Dont forget, I have said this is not an issued cross, bit a later private purchase example .Also I would like to hear from an expert in the field if possible.. How many firms made this cross? so why compare it to a single example? Common sense please.

Hello:

Common sense has been utilized. As stated by Markus, this piece does not conform to known originals by Wagner or Godet. It therefore falls into the "not an awarded piece" category. This therefore leaves open the possibility that it could have been made very recently or relatively long ago. It also leaves open the possibility that it was sold as a replacement piece to a recipient, or that it is a modern forgery meant to deceive collectors. Without more evidence, one cannot be certain.

I have owned an identical piece to this one. The piece that I owned came from a old collection which contained original period pieces. The quality of workmanship of the piece was sub-standard compared to a Wagner piece. The asterisk marking on the ring leads me to believe that the piece is a 1920's or later copy and that it is possibly of Austrian manufacture. So, I belive the piece to not be modern, and that it was possibly made to be sold as a replacement (for an actual recipient). However, there is no way to be 100% certain of this. Copies made for the collector's market have been around for a long time.

Best regards

Bonjour,

I need your opinion.

I found this bar for the DSWA.

Is this possible? and if not why?

Crdl

Thierry

Hello Thierry:

I believe that the combination could be possible. However, this looks to be a modern-made cast forgery from what I can see in the photographs.

Best regards

Hello:

The ribbon in the middle belongs to a Bavarian 1866 Campaign Cross.

This is a rather common group. A perfect and complete example of this group with these awards can probably be found in Germany for the same amount that you will have to pay for the individual awards during the restoration process.

Best regards

Hello:

An interesting topic indeed. If is often forgotten also that Hussar's uniforms had no buttonholes (only loops for the toggle buttons). Therefore on finds EKII crosses on bow-type ribbons (for Hussars) although there were no female recipients of this award 1914-1918. I have seen photos which confirm this.

Best regards

Since I collect medals and decorations, always I have surprised why, frequently, rarer decorations are, nevertheless, cheaper than others more common.

For example, a Albrechtsorden (knight 2nd class with swords) it's more expensive than a Silver Medal of the Military Order of St. Henry: both are Saxon awards,

both are bravery awards, the SAO for lieutenants and the SHM for enlisted and NCO. Nevertheless, the SHM is a bit scarcer than the SAO

Other example more "extreme", during the first world war, are awarded aprox. 3800 bavarian MVK 2nd class with crown and swords for senior NCO's,

and aprox. 24000 bavarian MVO 4th class for lieutnants. The MVO is much more common, but also it's more expensive.

Which is the reason of this?...maybe, the collectors prefer the enameled decorations?, prefer the awards for officiers?....

Dear Palencia:

You have made an excellent point. It does seem that collectors prefer the lure of enamel. I believe that a possible explanation is that newer collectors are drawn to what looks nicer and that therefore a higher value is placed upon such items by dealers as they are more sought after.

Rarity is sadly sometimes not a factor which determines the value of an object. Look at the 1914 EKII collector's market. Now such items are collected by maker with pieces by certain makers bringing premium prices. With MILLIONS of awards, I don't understand it. I remember being able to buy all of the 1914 EKII's that I wanted for US$15 each. This of course was awhile ago, but to me, (in my mind anyway) they are ALL still worth this amount! I will always be able to find one whenever I need one.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello:

Naxos is correct. It is without a doubt a SEHO Knight 1st or 2nd Class with Swords.

Best regards,

"SPM"