Schießplatzmeister

Recently i've been finding myslef more and more tempted by mounted imperial groups. I have until this point been pretty much a dedicated British/Commonwealth collector but have been known to "dabble" in other collecting areas when the mood strikes me.

I spotted this on a primarily British dealer site and was wondering what other members think. Now not knowing much abouth these groups i have some concerns. Firstly the ribbons appear narrower than typical is this usual for large mounted groups? Second the stitching used to affix the medals firmly in place does it look normal or a sign of a doctored group? I have asked for better photos of both the front and back side of the group as i've learned from this forum the backside can tell just as much as to authenticity as the front when it comes to groups. Lastly what would a fair market price be for this group (i'd hate to overpay on something by to much).

Cheers

Chris

Dear Chris:

Thank you for posting a photo of this item. Narrow ribbon ARE possible on genuine groups (especially if an Officer received many awards it allowed for easier mounting). In my opinion, from what I see, this group is recently assembled. There are many problems with the combination of awards on this bar and the order in which they appear. You should not purchase it at any price in my opinion.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Chris:

The "usual" for a silver MVM/TKM recipient was: Silver MVM/TKM; MVK III w/ Swords; and an EKII. A wound badge either black or silver and a nine (9) year service medal were not uncommon in addition to the above.

However, since this is a "trick" question. It was of course possible to only receive the silver MVM/TKM and nothing else. Or, as stated the MVM/TKM + EKII only. Or, the MVM/TKM + MVK III w/ Swords only.

Please show us what you have.

"SPM"

Hello SPM,

He won the Eiserne Kreuz II and the Bayern Verdienst Kreuz III acccording to the deathcard. The medals did NOT come with the card. I have added an old orginal bar grouping to frame with the card, Alpenkorps medal and the widow's cross. He is pictured in his dress (pre-War?) Leib Regiment uniform with the Guard lace on the collar and cuffs. I can't tell whether he has the Leib Regiment 'kronen' on the shoulder boards or not. He was a member of the 1st Battalion, Minenwerfer Kompagnie (one of the gentlemen who dealt ou the 'screaming minnies' to the Allies no doubt!). He was 'Gefallen' on 30 April 1918. I was not aware that the Spring Offensive was technically over so early (my error).

All the best,

Jay

Hello again Jay:

You are correct, technically the "Kaisersschlacht" continue into July (MY mistake).

In reality, during Operation Michael, starting on March 21, 1918, significant gains were made initially, but once the momentum stopped a few hours/days later (depending on the location on the front), all hope of victory was inevitably lost for Germany. I believe that the Ardennes Offensive in WWII was a tactical parallel.

It sounds like your display piece will be very nice when you are finished with it. Congratulations.

"SPM"

Gentlemen,

Can anyone tell me the German equivalent for KIA or as the French say it 'mort pour la France'? I have a deathcard and medals to a Gefreiter in the Bavarian Leib Regiment/Alpenkorps. Secondly, how tough is it to find if he has a known grave as one can readily discover from the British War Graves Commission website. My gentleman's name was Johann Baptist Mistbilger who was KIA on 30 April 1918 during the KaiserSchlacht. He was from Ranoldsberg, Bavaria. Thanks for all the experten out there.

Jay Stone

Hello again Jay:

I believe that the "Kaiser's Battle" was long over by April 30, 1918. I believe that the date should read 30. März 1918 if he actually fell during the Kaisersschlacht. Or, perhaps he died later of wounds received during the "Kaiser's Battle". If you post a scan of the SB (death card) there are plenty of folks here that can help you determine what the meaning is. What awards came with the grouping?

"SPM"

Gentlemen,

Can anyone tell me the German equivalent for KIA or as the French say it 'mort pour la France'? I have a deathcard and medals to a Gefreiter in the Bavarian Leib Regiment/Alpenkorps. Secondly, how tough is it to find if he has a known grave as one can readily discover from the British War Graves Commission website. My gentleman's name was Johann Baptist Mistbilger who was KIA on 30 April 1918 during the KaiserSchlacht. He was from Ranoldsberg, Bavaria. Thanks for all the experten out there.

Jay Stone

Hello Jay:

The word in German for fallen in battle is "Gefallen". "Heldentod fürs Vaterland" ("Died bravely for the Fatherland") was often used during WWI as were various other phrases. Here are two links to the German War Graves Commission equivalent:

http://www.volksbund.de/kurzprofil/homepage_en.asp

http://www.volksbund.de/kurzprofil/homepage.asp

Good luck with your quest.

"SPM"

Hello:

Most WWI veterans groups seen with long-service awards were for NCO's who started serving before 1914, as most 1914-1918 volunteers/conscripted soldiers never had enough service time to qualify for a long-service award. It was however possible to be a long-serving enlisted man who never received a promotion due to various reasons and receive a long-service award as noted above. I believe that the Prussian long-service awards were actually not often given out during the war, but were usually physically awarded after November 1918.

Best regards

SPM

Thank you very much for the viewing and information for a good way to find parts for the sword.

Thank you

Lorenzo

Here is the link to their shop on-line: http://www.wkc-solingen.de/newshop/index.html

Best regards,

"SPM"

Dan

Thank you for viewing, and you are right the sword should stay in its original condition. I would like to find a leather strap for mounting it and another original ring for it.

Thank you

Lorenzo

Dear Lorenzo:

This is a very interesting sword. I am certain that WKC can help you regarding the missing parts. They have a shop on-line. They might even be able to tell you when they had the contract for this sword.

Stay safe and have a good tour.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Correction, Johann Peter Röth served in the 6th coy of the 5th Baden Infantry Regiment.

Hello SPM, I could not find the Kanonier Roth as an Iron Cross II recipient for 1871.

According to the Regimental History Johann Peter Röth was awarded the CFMVM for his bravery shown on December 3rd, 1870 at the battle of Vendenesse near Dijon.

Hello Naxos:

I believe that you are 100% correct! I was looking at the name as "Roth" as the only possibility as that was what was listed by Misiu. I did not even consider Johann Peter Röth who IS listed in the Zelosko series. Johann Peter Röth makes perfect sense.

Best regards,

"SPM"

I think the bar belonged to Johann Peter Röth

During the Franco-Prussian War Röth served as a Lazarettgehilfe in 3rd coy 5. Badisches Infanterieregiment Nr. 113. He was awarded the KFMVM on February 15, 1871 and the Iron Cross II class on March 6, 1871.

Hello Naxos:

I missed this recipient as I didn't see him listed in the Zelosko series.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Here it is:

Hello militaria0815:

Wow! What a fantastic group! Congratulations!

MfG,

"SPM"

How do you like it?

Fantastic and rare, especially the second medal (golden cross of merit of the Zähringer Lion)

Price about 5000 e.

Misiu

Hello Misiu:

Thank you for discussing this fantastic group. This group probably belonged to Kanonier Joseph Roth of a FAR who was awarded the MKFVM on March 4, 1871. I do not think that the €5.000 price is too out of line. If you add-up the values of the original awards and consider the fact that the recipient is known, in auction, there would be strong bidding for this group and this price would probably be reached without much problem. From what I see, the bar is 100% original (even with the low-resolution photo and without seeing the reverse).

Best regards,

"SPM"

ps: By the way, the rarest and most desirable award on this bar is not the OZL Merit Cross, it is the Military Karl Friedrich Order Merit Medal.

Could anyone tell me how much a Bavarian Military Service Cross 2^nd Class with Crown and Swords in mint condition might be worth?

Here is some photos for one that is for sale

Hello:

This is a nice Deschler piece with the case and a piece of ribbon for officials. I would estimate the value in the range of US$225-$275. Note that this is a "bayerische Miltär-Verdienstkreuz" (Bavarian Military MERIT Cross) which was an award associated with merit and not service. Bavaria had distinct awards for service which were not related to this item.

A nice piece that looks to be original (forgeries do exist). How much was the seller asking for it?

Best regards,

"SPM"

Could anyone tell me how much a Bavarian Military Service Cross 2^nd Class with Crown and Swords in mint condition might be worth?

Here is some photos for one that is for sale

Hello:

This is a nice Deschler piece with the case and a piece of ribbon for officials. I would estimate the value in the range of US$225-$275. Note that this is a "bayerische Miltär-Verdienstkreuz" (Bavarian Military MERIT Cross) which was an award associated with merit and not service. Bavaria had distinct awards for service which were not related to this item.

A nice piece that looks to be original (forgeries do exist). How much was the seller asking for it?

Best regards,

"SPM"

Thank you guys. I checked what Mr. Turk currently offers...he has two of these, each other looking totally different. Question is are they both good, both fakes, or only one of them - which one?

Ah, this collecting...why didn't I stay with fishing...

Hello again:

Fishing used to frustrate me often too! The "fun factor" in collecting Imperial Orders and Decorations is not there often anymore for me either. It has become hard work keeping vigilant of forgeries, problems with the postal system, etc.

Without inspecting the pieces firsthand, it is rather difficult to make any proper analysis. Sascha pointed out that there are cast copies about. I have not personally inspected one of these yet. My suggestion would be to search-out a copy and to get good photographs of it. Perhaps this will help to know what to avoid. I would certainly wait to purchase a piece until you have studied a few copies and a few genuine pieces. There are undoubtedly many original pieces on groups that members on this forum own. Perhaps someone will post some photos of these pieces which may help a bit.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Does anyone have a picture of this cross? If so please be so kind and post it here both obverse and avers. I was googling it for half day and was not successful at all. That gives a clues it's a rare award?

Thank you.

Hello Viliam:

You are correct, these awards are relatively uncommon and much under-valued. I believe that Mr. Turk at www.emedals.ca has at least one example available currently in his listings and there are some photos there.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Looks great Sergio, thanks for posting the pictures.

What's the last medal on the ribbon bar with a purple centre?

Cheers

Chris

Hello Chris:

It is the ribbon for the 3rd Reich "Luftschutz Ehrenzeichen 1. oder 2. Stufe" (Air Raid Protection Service Award 1st or 2nd Class).

Best regards,

"SPM"

For some reason, when I see something like this I cannot help wondering how long its going to take for someone to break in and clean out the collection....

Happened at the German Airforce museum... and just this weekend a huge break in at the Verdun memorial museum cleaned out half the collection....

We share the hobby with pondscum who would see this as just the thing for a weekend adventure....

Hello Chris:

Sadly, you are correct! I do beg to differ a bit though and think that "pondscum" is too complimentary for these types of individuals. There will be a day soon where these types of items will no longer be on public display due to this type of criminal activity.

"SPM"

Hello Sergio:

The medal is definately not "original". "Original" (awarded) pieces were struck in steel and are magnetic. This piece appears to be a period (1930's) privately-made piece for veterans. It is therefore a valid collectible item and not a modern-day forgery made to deceive collectors (which would be worthless in my opinion). From what I see of the group and the field ribbon bar, there are no problems and everything seems to be as it should be.

Congratulations!

"SPM"

ps: A general word of caution, just because a piece is found on any dealer's website, this should not give it 100% creedence. Dealers are human (they don't know everything and can make mistakes). That being said, I personally have never had a problem with Mr. Weitze and believe that he is one of the better dealers. There are other dealers to be found that are very dishonest however.

What was the starting bid ?

Hello Chris:

The estimate was 300,000 to 500,000 pounds sterling. So, the starting bid was probably 250,000-300,000 pounds sterling or so.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello everyone:

I just checked the "prices realised" list from the October 22nd sale and the Star to Admiral Lord Nelson was withdrawn from the sale or unsold. I guess that the horrid economy is taking a bit of a toll on prospective bidders for items of this type!

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Daniel:

Welcome to the forum! The website regarding your grandfather is wonderfully done. I enjoyed reading it very much.

I would like to point out another great research tool right here in our "backyard" which I have used in the past. It is the Leo Baeck Institute in New York. They are most helpful and have a great many resources available.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Timo:

Thank you for sharing the photos of this medal. This example looks like it is probably die-struck. It also looks to be bronze that was silvered. It is not one of the many types of modern forgeries circulating. I believe that it is a quality piece made for the private purchase of veterans. It could have been made as late as the 1960's for this purpose. The ribbon also looks to be post-1945.

An interesting piece.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Luke,

Very nice bar you have there

I agree with SPM about the last ribbon but the antepenultienne is not the FAK but the knight cross of House Duke Merit Order of the Peter Frederick Ludwig of Oldenburg (knight cross 2ne or 1st class I don't know). I think our man began the War with grade of Major or Oberstleutnant.

The back of this bar is a pure Godet style ribbon bar for infantry, not navy. It will be blue.

Christophe

Excellent Christophe!

Does anyone know if there are PFLHO rolls out there? If so, this ribbon bar could be identified possibly. As the Army/Oldenburg PFLHO/Austrian Order of the Iron Crown combination narrows it down a bit more.

"SPM"

Apparently the only order/ award known that can still be attributed to Nelson?.

Yes, unless the pieces stolen ages ago ever surface again somewhere. If they did, I am certain that the legal wrangling to get them back the the heirs of the rightful owner would take decades. The Crown would also possibly claim them as a national treasure?? I am not certain who had legal possession of them when they were on display at Greenwich.

"SPM"