Schießplatzmeister

I only have Army Rangliste up to 1914. ID be out of the question with this combo?

In my opinion, it would be rather difficult to ID this Officer. The EK and FAK are of course wartime awards. Everything else is pre-war. The FAK is the award that to me opens the possibility of a naval connection. However, there are no China, DSWA, nor Colonial Campaign medals as one would usually expect on a naval bar with 1897 through 1914 service. There are also no Hanseatic City-State crosses. I would imagine that several Officers (naval and army) existed which had this combination.

If only Rick would return from his exile we could come out of the dark ages here on the forum!

A nice ribbon bar that looks original. So, be patient, an ID might be possible but not likely. Congratulations on a nice piece for your collection.

"SPM"

Not entirely sure of the last ribbon on this one, took a swing at it anyway...any thoughts?

Thanks!

Luke

Hello:

My vote is the Austrian Order of the Iron Crown. This ribbon bar looks like it may have possibly belonged to a naval officer?

"SPM"

Dear GMIC members:

This may have been noted already on this website, but I just noticed today that this fantastic piece of history will soon be at auction.

www.mortonandeden.com

If only I had a bit more pocket change!

"SPM"

it's a copy?

I believe that the term "forgery" would be more appropriate.

"SPM"

Hello SPM;

Thank you for your observations on this medal. I did not know that this was a private purchase piece. I knew that fakes of this medal are plentiful and that the bars are a special target of the forgers. I specifically mentioned the provenance to belie the possibility of this medal, the bars or the combination as being false.

It was my understanding that the "high-quality" fake bars only just entered the marketplace in the last 20+ years. The collector that bought the medal in the 1970s had, over the years, re-directed his focus to WWI Allies and specifically the research of British groups. Undisturbed from his collection, he only just sold it again to my friend in the 1980s. An OMSA member and frequent show attendee, before his recent death, he would become well known on a British medal collector forum as a knowledgeable and helpful mentor to others looking to research their "trios" or other named medal groups from WWI or earlier. His funeral included pages of accolades and condolences printed from that website's thread.

I know he purchased this medal as-is, however if the high-quality fakes were in the marketplace even in the 1970s, then I would believe that he could have been fooled.

I would love to put the medal in your hands for your assessment. Perhaps if we meet at a show (again) I could bring it along for conversation purposes.

Hello again Claudius:

The mounting and the medal are old and correct (so no worries there). This medal looks like a privately commissioned die (you will notice a lack of the die-sinker's mark under the neckline of the bust). Veterans often purchased medals from private purveyors to have a bar made up for wear. Regarding the bars, I do not believe that these examples conform to the most commonly encountered originals. Also, they do not look like the most commonly encountered forgeries. They may have been (and most likely were) made by the same supplier as the medal. I am not an expert on these DSWA bars and avoid them on purpose because collecting them is so risky.

I believe that our own Heiko does have the expertise to properly judge them. You might want to shoot him a PM to schedule sending him high-quality photos of the bars.

I am planning on attending the MAX Show and the SOS and am looking forward to meeting you again.

Best regards,

"SPM"

I like this one too. All of the ribbons appear to be old and the key piece (the 1866 non-combattant campaign cross) is an officially issued-type piece. There are copies (modern forgeries) of the non-combattant crosses, however, I like the context in this instance! I don't see anything that appears to be a problem with this group.

Best regards,

"SPM"

medal reverse

Hello Claudius:

This is an interesting DSWA medal. It appears to be an old private purchase (non-official die) piece. The medal was gilded and this gilding worn off of the obverse through everyday wear or most-likely polishing. The medal was removed from a group. Most group assemblers used whatever pieces of ribbon were extra in their shops for backing use while mounting medals.

The campaign clasps are another issue. Copies(forgeries) of these have been around for a long time and can be added to any group or medal at any point. To complicate matters even further, there were a variety of variations of original period items as there pieces were made by a variety of military purveyors. Without holding this piece in hand it is nearly impossible to pass judgement one way or the other regarding the campaign clasps.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hi,

here is a funny one.... he seems to have an officers Feldzeichen on the helmet.

It was on ebay as a bavarian Jäger, but from the collar badges I think not. Must be Schneeschu bstln?

Hello Chris:

A terrific photo. The MVK II with Swords is very clear in this photo. Looking at the uniform, he is definately an NCO of the Schneeschuh Bataillon. Unfortunately, I do not have enough knowledge regarding uniforms to comment regarding his shako.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello, dear Gents!

Here's the one of my favorite medal bar of the Franco-Prussian war's veteran, who possibly worked on the home front (in industry) during the WWI.

But I can't find enough information on the last award - the medal of "AEG" in honour of 70-anniversary of Emil Rathenau. If these medals awarded workers of "AEG" since 1908 (date of 70-anniversary E.Rathenau) or it is a corporate medal of the Weimar period?

Thanks in advance!

Hello Sergio:

Thank you for sharing this fantastic group with us. I have never seen an example of the last medal (which I assume is rather uncommon). It is indeed an Allgemeine Elektricitäts-Gesellschaft (AEG) coporately-issued medal for merit and loyalty/faithfulness/devotion. I am not entirely certain of the period of issue, but it looks to be finely made from silver. I would therefore estimate that it was probably awarded prior to the start of WWI or early in the war, but certainly not after 1917. There should be a die-sinker's mark "H. HAHN" under the bust. Congratulations regarding this excellent and unusual group.

Best regards,

"SPM"

A super group! This is the nicest MVK that I have ever seen (they are usually chipped to varying degrees when found).

Hmmmm....this group looks somewhat familiar....I think that I have seen it before somewhere?????

Best regards,

"SPM"

I wasn't even born yet!

I remember George telling me about when he started collecting after the War (WWII) and that he paid only about $50 for Grand Cross sets at that time.

It must have been nice not to have to worry about copies, etc. Back then, no one really cared about this stuff. I remember also hearing about George's lament when the OEK was published. After that, even young fools like me could identify and somewhat determine a "value" for Imperial Orders and medals.

I really miss George (I hope to someday know even half of what he forgot regarding Imperial German Orders and medals!) and am glad that I got to see his collection in person before it went back to Germany for worldwide re-distribution to other collections.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hi,

any unit? Bavarian? Prussian?

Best

Chris

Prussian, Landwehr I.R. 15 (13. Landwehr Division).

Best regards,

"SPM"

There were around 28.000 4th classes w X, about 750 3rd classes, plus: many 3rd classes were returned after the winner had died.

Thank you militaria0815!

For everyone that doesn't know, militaria0815 is an expert in this area and definately knows what he is talking about.

Best regards,

"SPM"

All this does raise a question. The Bavarian MVO was probably the most widely awarded house order of the war with well over 20,000 in all classes. One would expect that at least on the order of a few thousand were awarded in 3rd Class. If that is the case, where are they? They are seen much less often than many awards that were awarded less liberally. Any ideas?

Hello Beau:

There were approximately 24,000 or so MVO 4th with Swords awarded during the war. I believe that the total for the number of MVO 3rd with Swords was a bit less than 1,000 (I will have to look up the exact number later today), thus making this a rather scarce award.

For the Bavarian Officers (Lieutnants) the MVO 4th with Swords was the usual combat-zone service award. The higher classes were awarded according to rank with the 3rd Class with Swords pieces going to rather senior Officers as the Crown embellishment came next regarding award/rank hierarchy.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Paul:

An interesting group. I never have a good feeling though when I see a silver-gilt MVO "3rd" with swords these days. Often, they are gilded 4th Class with swords pieces made to deceive collectors. Also, considering the source of this particular item (who has sold some items in the past that I would possibly consider questionable), I would tend to be cautious. With that being said, without actually inspecting the piece in person, no definitive conclusions can be drawn.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Barzda:

The crown appears to be an original example. I see no problems with this item.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Yes for example Friedrich, Prince of Waldeck and Pyrmont...note the breast star device of the House Order on his ribbon bars!

Pierce

Hello Pierce:

Thank you for providing this excellent example! The Order ribbon with the device is for an Austrian Order of the Iron Crown award. So, here is an example of a German Officer wearing an Austrian award in the Austrian fashion.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Gentlemen,

I like to know if these awards below have a ribbon bar to wear in uniforms (expecificaly these classes)if yes, a like to view them or the commom ribbon bar of order is used?

Thx a lot in advance

Cheers

Crown Order - 2nd Class with swords - Kingdom of Prussia

Red Eagle Order - 2nd Class with swords - Kingdom of Prussia

Military Merit Order - 2nd Class with swords - Kingdom of Bavaria

Hello Alexandre:

While not an expert, I will share the following:

Officially, the representations of these classes of these particular awards were not worn on a field ribbon bar. However, there were always exceptions, and examples are known of some very high ranking German Officers (usually with connections to various ruling houses) wearing the ribbon of a particular Order on their field ribbon bar with a miniature representation of the higher class (neck class of the Order or sash class of the Order) on the ribbon in the style that was popular (and Officially sanctioned) with Austrian Officers. I recall in particular a field ribbon bar that I have seen which had Saxon Orders (SEHO, etc.) on it that may have been in the Seymour collection and later passed through the Thies auction. Perhaps GMIC member Deruelle will have a better recollection regarding that particular example. He IS an expert regarding the awards of Saxony and Thuringian States.

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello Avadski:

In my opinion, you have already identified the problem with this piece. It is non-ferrous/non-magnetic and thus not made of iron. It is therefore not original and "as-awarded".

I believe that per your previous posting regarding this item (if I recall correctly), you may have obtained this from a seller on Ebay who is known to sell many forgeries (but once in awhile a genuine piece also). If this piece was from any other source, I would take a second look at it, but considering the source, I could only conclude that the piece is unfortunately probably a forgery.

Best regards,

"SPM"

3)

Hello Avadski:

Thank you for sharing this item with us. This piece does not appeal to me at all for the following reasons:

1) The center elements appear to be silver in color (perhaps I am missing a gilt wash on the photo/scan however).

2) The center enamel appears to be of poor quality.

3) The area where the swords used to be was modified to remove the mounting hole where the swords were attached.

4) The suspension loop is a replacement/repair as you already noted.

In summary, if you re-added swords to this item, you would still have a difficult time convincing anyone that it is an original item with swords re-added. My suggestion would be to wait for an original example in perfect condition. As you know, original pieces are difficult to find and very expensive, but with patience, one will be undoubtely appear on the market in the future.

This of course is only my opinion. It is your money of course to spend as you see fit.

Good luck regarding this piece.

Best regards,

"SPM"

And, it is magnetic....

Hello Jason:

It looks to be a perfect piece on a nice non-combattant single mounting. I see no reason for concern regarding this item.

Best of luck with it.

"SPM"

Not by the size I reckon. The medal I think is the Bavarian 1913 LS medal-given the other Bavarian cross.

Of course, perhaps it might just be the bravery medal, but I'd be very surprised not to see an EK2 at least with that at the button hole.

Hello Ulsterman:

I think that you are correct that this is a most likely a Bavarian long-service medal (9 year, 12 year, or 2nd Class Landwehr). I do not think that it is a Bavarian Bravery medal as the ribbon is not the correct color and because it is in the inferior position [it would usually (but not always) be worn above other awards].

Best regards,

"SPM"

Thank you SPM. Very informative!

I am still interested to know how this ribbon is most likely Reuss and not Waldeck. Was the Waldeck award very rare?

Matt

Hello again Matt:

Yes, you are correct, Waldeck awards are less often seen. Also, Waldeck awards are more often seen in groups with Prussian awards and very seldom with Saxon awards. So, what is most probable is what would make the most sense here.

As you have seen, Deruelle who is without a doubt a top expert in this area (although he may deny it) has nailed it down to the exact unit!

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hello again Matt:

After 1915, Reuss used a ribbon identical to that of the Waldeck Merit Cross for all of their Honor Cross combat (with swords) awards. Since your ribbon has a gilded swords device, this would be a 2nd Class award with swords or a gold merit medal with swords. Since this fellow was most-likely an Officer per his Saxon awards, a 2nd Class with swords is probable. It is also possible however that he received the gold merit medal with swords and was then granted a temporary field promotion (i.e.: Leutnant d. Reserve) during the war. Unfortunately, there are no known award rolls for Reuss awards for WWI.

Congratulations and best regards,

"SPM"

Gentlemen,

This little bar landed with me the other day. Passes the black-light test and devices all look good in my opinion.

What say you chaps?

Just looking through my copy of Medal Ribbons and Orders by D.G. Neville and i find it interesting to note that the Waldeck ribbon is the "Order of Civil Merit"...but with swords? How so?

EDIT: Perhaps i have identified it wong and it is the Waldeck Cross of Honour (1899)?

Kind regards

Matt

Hello Matt:

This is a nice "soft" ribbon bar for an Officer. The yellow, red, and black ribbon could be for the Waldeck Honor Cross (not for a "civilian award" though as there are swords present), but it is more likely for Reuss Honor Cross. Are the swords silver-plated or gilded?

Best regards,

"SPM"