paja

Now that you have mentioned daggers, I also noticed big amount of them being offered and sold. They are mostly coming from the same sellers some of them are of pretty good quality others not, but that doesn't mean that they are fake. Also there couple of "types" of these daggers looking pretty much the same with sometimes different details for example different type of material used from the handle.

Do you perhaps have some photos of those fake chetnik daggers? I'm really interested to see how they look like and compare them with others from ebay.

Here are two examples, I think that the photos are from various auction sites...

These are actually miniatures.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-86658200-1418762664.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-60966900-1418762667.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-98479100-1418762668.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-20595000-1418762670.jpg

Thanks, photos are not excellent, but still can't see anything wrong with it. Perhaps Emanuel knows more about them

By the way I've seen badges of the Association of officers in reserve and warriors made by the same producer, of course that doesn't prove anything.

Back side.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-94024000-1418745987.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-78920700-1418745991.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-48564400-1418745997.jpg

What do you think of it?

Very interesting! Thanks for sharing.
Here's one of those revolver&dagger badges with Goldštajn (Голдштајн) inscription.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-19748000-1418745921.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-45623000-1418745927.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-49635500-1418745924.jpg

Thanks for expressing your opinion. I tried to start a discussion about those stars on GMIC almost a year ago and I felt like I hit the wall of silence. Drugo and you are the first ones that publicly spoke about this matter. One more thing there are also III class stars looking as suspicious to me as some of those II class ones...

Greetings Pajo my friend,

That was the famous "Georgetown Hoard", the guy sold around 5 Ravna Gora triangle badges, all Full original and in Mint condition.

Number 003601 achieved the record sale of $1.494 dollars, a sum extraordinary for that badge,but there were some hard bettors and the price went high up.

I reckon that the story is right, I think simply that they guy that owned them, was at the camp at that time and he just grab a few from the Box, thus the close numbering and the totally Mint condition, simply as that I guess...

More rare than this rare badge thought is the ones with the LATINIC P for the initial letter of King Peter II and not the Cyrillic one, awarded to the few Bosnian Chetnics.

But I doubt you will find around one in the near future....

Here is a nice example stucked on a .....lighter, great Military Art set I suppose

Greetings Emanuel, good to hear from you

Thanks for shedding some light on this matter. chetnik1942 posted photos of the badge with number 003601 in this topic almost three years ago: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/31679-serbia-original-chetnik-items/?p=486980

The last one I saw (from the same seller) got sold couple of weeks ago. That was the third one I noticed, all three were in 0041XX range, so he's been selling them for quite some time now and he had examples that were not so close (3601 - 41XX).

To be honest I don't remember seeing that PII variant before, thanks for sharing interesting photo!

If you have more photos of good fakes I would be grateful if you could post them here.

Few photos for you Rašić(Rasic).Most General Mihailovic fighters on those photos have same and/or very similar bagde as your granpa.

First photo is particularly interesting to me. That's 2nd lieutenant of Četnik (Assault) units of the regular Yugoslav army. These special units were formed in 1940 with purpose to fight behind the enemy lines. Their members wore uniforms that were different from the rest of the army (apart from mountain troops - they wore similar uniform). On the photo we can see some elements of it, first blouse with "visible" buttons (there were 6 of them), collar wasn't raised and there were skulls with crossed bones on it, soft šajkača with regular M1939 cap emblem. Their waffenfarbe was black, same as for artillery. I think someone already wrote about this in other topic.

Again thanks! I agree about the other part of your reply. Every time something like that happens I feel the same way, and I am very sceptical when explanations that someone found a hidden stash are used.

Regarding the revolver and the dagger badge. Also some of them are original and some are fakes. Be aware! On the backside you see that these badges are made of two pieces. There are some that you can see as they are newly mended, like repaired. My theory is that these aren't original. Because there are a lot "mended"

I think I remember seeing one that looked like it was soldered on the back side, but to be honest I thought that the badge was original but repaired.

One more thing, is it known which workshops were involved in production of these badges? Apart from Kovnica AD Beograd (Ковница АД Београд) I think I saw examples with M. Goldštajn Beograd (М. Голдштајн Београд) inscription on the back side but I'm not completely sure.

Pajo, I bought one of those Ravna Gora badges from the american guy and they are good. The american got all those badges from a widow, her husband was an officer in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. It seemed that that officer was one of the people that was asigned to give those badges to the chetnik survivors. Because of that all the numbers match numerical.

Thanks for explanation. Just as with those other two badges that one was a bit suspicious (if I may use that term) not because of it's quality but quantity, especially considering the fact that they came from the same seller. But if you say they are OK, I have no reason to think they're not.

What do you think about this one?

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-84925400-1418389262.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-08452900-1418389260.jpg

I never saw this one before but on the other hand I'm not really focused on Četnik related militaria...

We know that there is huge amount of pretty obvious replicas of that badge. It is true that they can now be found more easily but whether some of them are very good fakes or not I also can't tell.

Apart from that example other badges that are suppose to be very rare are now appearing in larger quantities to be more precise Ravna gora and the one with crossed revolver and dagger.

When it comes to Ravna gora badge I noticed one US seller sold I think 4 on ebay in the last year, pretty close numbering, most of them described as "unused".

This just appeared on ebay, it's always the same Spanish seller. Spanish medals, in all different versions, are among the most faked Yugoslavian medals.

By the way, these are VERY rare, but this seller appears to have enough of them to picture two of them in the same picture, obverse and reverse, and they are both so identical and in pristine condition that he doesn't need to tell you which one you will receive.

I started separate topic on Spain Volunteers material before I started this one. I was looking for a good excuse to connected them, you just gave me one.

Anyway here's the link: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/63248-fake-yugoslav-volunteers-in-spain-1936-1956-medal

Greetings Drugo, it is always interesting to start a discussion like this one

About the screw nuts, I am not claiming that they are fake, I just wondered why would there be a need for someone to combine fake nuts with original orders. Same goes for the order, I am just not that big expert to be able to do something like that (claim that they are fake), the only thing that I can do is express my doubts. Although I do respect your opinion and truly hope that all of those stars are original some of the questions I've been asking myself are still unanswered. As to that discussion you mentioned, I think that the results are well let's just say inconclusive, to me it looks like those who thought it was fake didn't change their opinion and same goes for the others who thought different.
Comparison #1 - Screw nuts

I am far from expert on Soviet decorations but I think plenty of GMIC members are so it would be great if someone could tell us a little bit more about them.

Comparison #2 - Reverses

In my opinion it's not only the screw nuts that have that "cheap" look...

Thanks for expressing your opinion.

OK, about enamel I am not sure, I really don't have a clue how difficult is it to make it. There were also theories that someone perhaps found original tools for production, how realistic is that I can't say but apparently some IKOM tools were found and once again put into use.

Screw nuts, why would there be a need for someone to fake only them? If the theory about those orders being found in some storage is true then they would have probably been kept together with the screw nuts. I really can't see why would someone separate nuts from orders. And we are not speaking about just couple of cases, practically all of those orders have bright and shinny nuts like that (Only on ebay I've seen 50 for sure in the last two years). Also if they were in storage being that they are made out of silver they would've had to "catch" some patina over the decades. These look brand spanking new, apart from those strange looking dark stains on the wreath, fake patina or whatever they are. On the other hand storage theory can explain why their enamel is perfect. Not a single spot let alone scratch which is something very common on these orders that were awarded and worn. On most of the examples whoever put number did a sloppy job, compared with 100% original stars from my collection they look very different, thicker, in some cases literally unreadable.
Most of them are in the 5XXX range but other numbers appear as well both lower and higher.
Whether they are fake or not one thing is certain they are definitely different. If we presume they all came from USSR together then why is there difference between those two "types". Is it known how many of them were actually made in the first place? If most of those for example Orders of National Liberation are from some storage I still can't make difference between "regular" awarded orders and "storage" examples which is not the case with Partisan Stars.

You're welcome Drugo,
Unfortunately like you said the list is not over so I would like to call everyone if they notice some fake or already have photos of fake Yugoslav militaria to post them here.

When it comes to the list of decorations you made, all of them are looking authentic to me except for some of Partisan Stars II class (III class also). There are some scary ones out there being sold almost daily for years. Most of the "strange" ones have shinny back side and screw nut, badly inscribed numbers or at least not as good as on some examples I know are 100% authentic, traces of something that looks like fake patina... I wrote about this in the Partisan Star topic (http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/15023-yugoslavian-partisan-stars/?p=581148) but so far on one had anything to say on this matter.

About the others my guess is as good as yours...

One more thing to be careful about is typical for converted Brotherhood&Unity and Order for Merits Towards People.

For some reason certain amount of those decorations made by IKOM was converted in ZIN. Vertical needles were put on the back side and while doing so sometimes the number of the orders became just partially visible. This fact was misused by some sellers who because of that claimed that they are selling orders with much lower number that they actually were. In most cases order that wore 5-figure numbers were presented as orders with 4, 3 and even 2-figure numbers.

Here's one example:

When it comes to Bravery order I've read somewhere that certain number of Yugoslav types was put on Soviet made "ribbon-holders", so if that's true than we can see that kind of combination. Most of them I noticed so far (about 5 or so) were in the 4XK range. But what we shouldn't see is the Soviet orders with Yugoslav plates.

Same thing with Bravery order, first one is the Soviet, other three are Yugoslav.
http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-38829300-1417453934.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-30406600-1417453939.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-00398400-1417453943.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-65019600-1417453945.jpg

Suspension ring with "gap" on Yugoslav types.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-90766100-1417453642.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-20450500-1417453645.jpg

Soviet "ribbon-holders" (would would be the proper English term?) are made out of two metal plates that are held together by those two small pieces on the left and right of the back side (pointed out with arrows).

One more thing to be careful about it the suspension ring, on Soviet pieces it's "connected", on Yugoslav pieces you can see the small "gap".

Not really fake but something that deserves to be pointed out.
As we all know Bravery order and medal are among first Yugoslav decorations instituted during WW2. First types were produced by the Soviets and they are different from the later Yugoslav made type.

It's not really hard to tell difference between those two types but I've noticed that sellers or whoever sometimes replace those metal plates that hold the ribbon without that being mentioned it the ad or auction.

If you know what to look for it's not that hard to make difference between Soviet and Yugoslav plates as well.

First here are photos of one Soviet and two Yugoslav Bravery medals.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-85870900-1417452891.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-34968400-1417452894.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-05785500-1417452898.jpg

Saw an ad for this couple of days ago.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2014/post-7937-0-52717200-1417214598.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2014/post-7937-0-57661800-1417214608.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2014/post-7937-0-75849200-1417214617.jpg

The Military Police Special Operations Battalion "Cobras" (Батаљон војне полиције специјалне намене "Кобрe"), according to the seller the unit has it's own vineyard.

Same photo is used here: http://sammler.ru/index.php?act=Gallery&cat=449

Marked as 2nd type (IKOM) although it looks more like the 1st type, compare it with other IKOM piece there (screw variant).

That's suppose to be very rare variant, but apart from surface on the back side being different it looks pretty much the same as the one utopis presented in post #53, at least to me.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2014/post-7937-0-57396100-1417182395.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2014/post-7937-0-91694000-1417182398.jpg