johnnymac

To All; Both books are Government printing, both printing dates 1920. Second book by Gen. Pershing: list all units attached to 1st, 2nd 3rd., Army, and their Corps, Divisions, Battalions, Regiments, etc. Example: these unit not list in book: Battle Participation --------etc. 1st DIVISION 1St Mobile Ordnance Repair Shops (M.O.R.S.), 301st, 378th & 695th Service Parks, 1st Motor Vehicle Shops, 309th Commissary, 319th Clothing, 22nd Salvage, 314th Laundry, 18th & 22nd Bath, 7th Bakery. 2nd DIVISION 2nd Mobile Ordnance Repair Shops (M.O.R.S), 303rd, 363rd & 375th Service Parks, 2nd Motor Vehicle Shops, 1st Commissary, 320th Clothing, 2nd Salvage, 326th Laundry, 17th Bath, 319th Bakery. It is the mate to Battle Participation, ------------etc. not only does it list ALL the units, it has tons of maps, each battle and more. Sorry this book is not a reprint so keep an eye out. Forget downloading and printing the book out. Cost of ink is a killer, not mention time or paper! Book is only $19.95 USD. JM

Thomas At the top of your medal the ribbon is worn on both ends that is normal as a person had to put pressure on the ribbon to pin it on and take it off. For sure that person prized it, as it is still in great shape. This list is just some of the units to be issued this medal with these clasps: 4th Division, 52nd Coastal Artillery Corps, 411th Telegraph Battalion, 411th was made up mainly from Pacific Bell personal on the west coast of the USA who enlisted for the war from a (Telephone Co.), 1st Corps Balloon Group, 3rd Corps Balloon Group, 4th Co., 1st Regiment Gas, 1st Battalion Trench Artillery, 2nd Cavalry. JM

To all, I welcome all feed backs, Sorry I am limited to KB's so quality is not as good as I would have liked. JM PS - I am not saying that the Art Medal Works put out these Army style clasps as original issue clasp. But it is possible that they were, the subcontractor of these clasp for an independent person or company.

Tim I am sorry if you think that my intent was to fully down grade you too anything other than a very serious and very knowledgeable collector, it was not my intent. As for the Marine medal issue, my intent was to add something fresh and maybe something new, nothing more. The two articles I posted were from two different newspapers listing two Marines which “they” listed alone with their award. I thought it might have at less some interest but seems it was taken as me promoting a medal. I am 67 years old and the added value to that medal if any, would have been peanuts. I too, collect because I like collecting, just like you. When I pass someone will come in and offer my wife a faction of their value and no matter what paper trail I leave, it will do her no good, and all collectors know or should know that. A true collector, collects because they enjoy what there are collecting. So what was my big gain here on that medal? Thanks for all your help and time in the past, and I add, live a long and good life, JM

Rob and Tim you both have added to my knowledge of the victory medal at the point where Laslo book left off. But, Tim let me add, Laslo and Nixon matrix's is only a good start for the new collectors, as there was more then just infantry in that war. The trouble with posting a matrix is people assume that is the final word so they put a value on all their medals as a rare item from a famed division. Laslo saw this error and that is why in his second publication he did not put one in. Tim you ask for ironclad provenances or documented groups, so I hope these photocopy pages from a book will work for you. see: AISNE-MARNE, ST. MIHIEL, MEUSE-AGRONNE and DEFENSIVE SECTOR. As for the two repro bars Rob mentions in his postings. A coin is a good example of a design, it stays the same through the years until it is decided by those in power to be changed. It does not jump all over the place with its design as on some of the clasp we see. Upside down stars, large and smaller stars, letters types, semi circles, spacers on some, missing on others, it just does not work that way. It is laughable to think that government would just threw together a victory medal with a broad mix of clasp 90% of the time with these clasps out of order in how they were awarded. Yes, replacement bars were needed at some point, but, I consider as the only real replacement clasp the one with the pins on the back of the clasp. The main reasoning I follow is: Are we to believe, the clasps with the upside stars, missing spacers, ect, was again changed back, to the original design as was done on the pinned clasp? If Laslo and Gleim found anything on these unknown Army style clasp they would have put them front and center their books and not as just a mear mention. Regards, JM

Tim, Gooding morning and Happy New Year You listed your two medals as the 4th Division medal, but these units also received the, ANISE-MARNE, ST. MIHIEL, MEUSE-ARGONNE and DEFENSIVE SECTOR clasp on their Victory medals. The 52nd Coastal Artillery Corps 1st Regiment Gas 1st Battalion Trench Artillery 2nd Cavalry 29th Engineers (Surveying) 40th Engineers (Camouflage) 1st Corps Balloon Group. I have to agree with Rob on the clasps being reproductions or after market items, and not reissue. You know that government contracts and subcontracts must meet government standard. The three clasps illustration on Rob's posting (LYS, ST. MIHIEL and MEUSE-ARGONNE) are without question non-government issue. Ninety-nine percent of medals issued were completed by, lets say, by 1930. The government would have kept on hand an ample surplus of clasps for errors in issue, lost medals, and persons entitled but who had not yet applied for the medal. In your earlier posting, you showed a clasp with pins on the back without the back strap. This clasp, plus the original issue clasp, has the same design faceplate and, in my eyes, would be the only government reissue clasp. As for the missing or shorter spacer bars on each side of the earlier style issued clasp, that could have happen in the casting/stamping. There are many reasons why a market for the after market clasps could and would grow: 1. When Johnny came marching home there were so many men who were not going back to the their farms and small towns. Work was tough to get in the big cities and the bigger the medal you had, the better the chance of you getting a job from the hiring boss who also might be a veteran. Where might Johnny go to get a more impressive medal; maybe "the firm of Bailey, Banks, & Biddle". 2. Thousands of men went AWOL in France and could not return to their small towns after marching off to the tune of "Over There, Over There" without a medal. Johnny could not just go and buy a Victory medal unless he too went to, "a firm like Bailey, Banks, & Biddle". 3. Special Note - nearly all the issue clasps are named for campaigns, and who lead these campaigns: "the Generals". If the clasp had been named for each battle, how many Generals would have entitled to a battle clasp? On the other hand, harden vet's would have said: I fought at "Belleau Woods" "Chateau Thierry" and "Soissone" holding his pint in hand. Yes, there would have been a good market for these clasps. I believe, that is why, we see the "Made in France" marked clasp. 4. In the 60's, tons of so-called items from Germany WWII were hitting the market "as bring home's". It was so bad that unless you purchased an item from a reputable person you knew, you would walked away. Last, lets also remember that Dad, GrandPop and Uncle Johnny were still around. So very few Victory medals, if any were for sale. Lack of information on WWI & WWII items and the fact that the collector's ranks were growing at an unbelievable rate made the market right for repros. Note that 16th Eng. R.R. vic medal posted that "LYS" clasp has only one spacer and the MEUSE-ARGONNE clasp has nubbs at each end for spacers. Regards JM

Does this help JM

Hi, again this why I ask, please note he is not USMC, but the 23rd Inf., 3rd brig., of the 2nd Division was also awarded the "fouragers. He does not have a tunic disk on, but he does have four overseas chevrons which would date him maybe to the 2nd Div. Also the item hanging out of his pocket looks a lot like a fouragere tip. Looking that the ribbon area you will see a ball shape object sticking out where the "pen" slit is, just above the pocket flap. ??? Thanks JM

Thank you both for your input, and "Happy Holidays". JM

This is a French Croix de Guerre, did the US also wear a fourrageres on their medal, Thanks, JM

Hi Chris, thanks for the come back, http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2009/post-8368-126113663412.jpgGeneral Graves B. Erskine (then platoon leader in the 6th Marine Regiment) wears the fourragère with the cords hanging over the sleeve, a mark of being in the military unit when the award was made. Soldiers, Sailors and Marines who are later assigned to the unit "do not wear the outside cords "See Photo". The 5th Marine Regiment and the 6th Marine Regiment of the United States Marine Corps were awarded the fourragère for having earned the Croix de Guerre with palm leaf three times during World War I. The U. S. 23rd Infantry Regiment, Second Division, U.S. A.E.F., was awarded the French Croix de Guerre with Palm three times, and awarded the French fourragère for service during the following World War I campaigns: CHATEAU THIERRY, AISNE-MARNE, and MEUSE-ARGONNE. In addition, because several U.S. soldiers were present in front-line action during each and every battle for which the 23rd Infantry was awarded the Croix de Guerre, the French Government and U.S. Army Adjutant General were allowed to wear the fourragère as an individual decoration regardless of future unit assignmenta very rare honor. (In total, 434 A.E.F. officers and men were certified to wear the French fourragère as an individual decoration, per the Final Report of the Secretary of War, 1922.) 17 French military units wear the fourragère along with the U.S. 370th Infantry Regiment. The U.S 370th Inf., Regt. being part of the 93rd would serve under and alongside the French Army after both the main American Expeditionary Force (AEF) and the British Army refused to have African-American soldiers serve in combat under them. Unlike the 92rd, the 93nd would fight as a whole and the division would see combat in the Meuse-Argonne Offensive while serving under the French. My question is do or did they wear a fourragere on their "Individual earned Medal". The dress uniform from the article above, "new unit members" as I see it did not wear the outside cords but did wear just the cords under the arm. Thanks JM

Hi Yes, U.S. Marines 2nd Division

Hi, Can some one help me with this question on the Croix De Guerre, I am looking to purchase one, but I notice that the ribbons seem to be a different in color on all the ones I have looked at, is this just faking of the colors? Or is there a standard color which sets each year apart, 1915, 1916, 1917, and 1918. Also the 5th & 6th Marines (WWI) wore a “fourragère” on their uniform, did they also have fourragère on their Croix de Guerre medal? JM

To all, This is the French unofficial type 1, But this one is not silvered. JM

Thanks for the come back, and I do understand clearly what you are saying, again thanks. JM

Tim, The UK did it right, Name, Service number, Rank, and Unit, it is a shame the US vic decided not to follow their lead. But exploring clasps, ribbons, brooches, boxes and ect, ect., holds a lot of interest for me. Question, are there a lot or any bogus Uk vic's out there and if so, can you in lighting me? All I know is the ribbon on the UK vic is not as big a deal as it is on US vic, or is it? JM

Hi Again to all, Can any one help me with lighting set up for taking photos JM

Hi Tim, I totally agree with you on the stitching. The ribbon from what I can see in the photo is too new to have needed this type of repair. Also, the bars, they are stacked to close. Plus looking at your photo it seems to me that two of the clasps are missing the spacer side bars on them. I have seen original issue clasp without side spacers, they come from a casting out of a slightly colder mold. Most times they were for short run clasp like, LYS, SOMME, DEFENSIVE and CAMBRAI. In my mine this vic would make me back off this piece if it was up for bidding or at a show. Thanks for your posting, JM Tim I am not sure what IMO is?

JM

Rob, Thanks for posting More on boxes Lets just say that Art Medal Works Inc.and S.G. Adams subcontracted their work out. You can see (from your posting) Art Medal Works Inc. sent their work out in the original style box they were using for the Victory Medal. Each hand stamped with listed clasps to be assembled. But not S.G. Adams. They both used this reddish color ink, to identify the clasps to be assembled by the subcontractor. To me (AMW Inc. and Adams) stamping, listing the clasps, look like peas in a pod, ink color, letter type and size . I believe the red stamped AMW Inc. used on it unassembled box is original, but do question the newer unassembled print labeled on the Adams boxes. Boxes, rubber stamp and any color ink you want are still on the market and if you have a stamped box, this adds value. Also I just find it odd that S.G. Adams who was a Stamp & Stationery Co. would not send their unassembled Victory medals in the original print labeled style box. We can use cost as that factor for differences in their boxes? But a new type box, which had to be printed with their label on the front would also added extra cost. Adams, a Stamp & Stationery Co. with a QC person, let this box go out with a typo error, "Mnfg" and on a government contract? That error could have meant someone's job. .Jos. Mayer used a ink stamping on his boxes also, (I have only seen one box) the ink is black with a larger and different letter style and the shamp was a date not for clasps.. The Philadelphia Depot hand stamped their boxes, but with a different letter style than the other three. It has at less three times the spacing between each of the names of the clasps on their box. Again, only one box examined. Can anyone post an original style box from S.G. Adams, which is printed with anything other than ENGLAND, FRANCE, ITALY, RUSSIA, or SEBRIA on the front of it. If there are no other original style boxes out there with other clasps printed on them than ENGLAND, FRANCE, etc, then maybe the second type box is the real deal used by Adams. Away for three days Thanks, JM

Gentlemen's I do agree to the fullest on the documentation of a piece. My intent was not the award itself but the combo of clasps on the Victory medal. The value of an item where things can be moved around by adding or subtracting does not add very much more value when the item is not properly documented as in case of this silver star. What, I found very interesting was these clasps were listed for Marines in two different news posting and two different counties. The word estate item has been over used, as have been the posting of dog tags with a Victory medal, for documention. I am reminded of the case of the placing of a monument on the battlefield of Gettysburg Pennsylvania. Both the 71st & 7nd Penn Vol. Inf. claimed that their marker was to be placed in the front at the high watermark of the battle as they each claimed they were the lead Regiment on July 3, 1863. This case when on for years in the Pennsylvania State Supreme court until the last Vet died. The book "Battle Paricipation of Organizations of the AEF" is a great starting place but it was printed in 1920 and I am sure there was at less fifty or more corrections since its printing that we do not know of. Laslo mentions in his book that the U.S. Groverment updated this listing in 1922, can anyone lead me to this newer listing. This is out of the 80th Div. Descendants web site. The 80th Division was the third most active Division in the A.E.F. They ranked #1 of all National Army Divisions; and were third overall behind the First Regular Army Division and Second Regular Army Division. Initial rumors in 1919 had the 80th Division ranked second overall in the U. S. Army, but the final analysis ranked them third, behind the regular Army* s 1st and 2nd Divisions. They were ranked first in the National Army Division. (This researcher believes that a deceptive item in General Pershing* s report of January 1919, in which he gave the 2nd Division credit for an objective which the 80th Division had clearly met, resulted in a denigration of the 80th status). The ranking was challenged by Captain Charles Rossire of the 319th Infantry in September 1920 when he read Pershing* s report. Major James Montague, 2nd Battalion Commander of the 319th, and Captain R. P. Keegell, H Company of the 319th, supported Captain Rossire with documentation. The final report was not changed, but a copy of the challenge was placed in the Historical Plans Division, General Staff, for future reference. Initially, service personnel were only authorized to wear one bronze star (and Battle Clasp on the Victory Medal) for the Meuse Argonne campaigns, but while enroute to the states after the War in May 1919, they were also authorized to wear the clasp and bronze star for St. Mihiel. Their campaign streamers were authorized for Picardy 1918, Somme Offensive, 1918, Lorraine and Meuse Argonne. Citing G.O. #75, G.H.Q., A.E.F., dated 2 May 1919, men of the 80th were credited with the Somme Offensive, 03 July - 18 August; St. Mihiel Offensive (in Corps reserve) 10-16 September; and Meuse Argonne Offensive 26 September -06 November. It is not known how many of these men who served in all three areas actually were advised of the G.O.. Prior to the issuance of the order of 21 May 1919, General Pershing made the determination as to whom and how a particular battle clasp could be worn; in some cases going against the rules of the battle clasps and Victory Medal. We have located a document that indicates that all men who served from June 1918 -June 1919 were entitled to wear four battle clasps and four bronze stars, representing Defensive Sector (Artois), Somme Offensive, St. Mihiel and Meuse Argonne. The History and Heraldry, published in 1960, does not give credit to all of the units that served in these three areas. Please forgive me, as I am not at my best when it comes to writing an article. JM

Add-on to my last posting August 20, 1918, Harold Malcolm Dunipace was transferred to 205th Casual Co. at Brest, France. Brest was one of the port cities for troops arriving and departing France. The USMC as I have read had only about 6,000 assigned to the 2nd Division. And after 3 major engagements I am sure their numbers had to be dramatically reduced which would have made them an ineffective force. So what place better to assign them, than a port city with ships. Also while searching the internet - I found these records on different Motor Transport Companies. A. Laslo mentions (Hugo W. Fales - page 98) from the MTC in his book. Note below, the Clasps these two men received. It would seem the MTC's were busy, alone with the 3rd Division, 6th Engineers. From Walter T. Kyle's entry in Vol. 10, the Official Roster of Ohio Soldiers, Sailors and Marines, World War 1917-18, page 9676. Joined from the QM Section, Enlisted Reserve Corps, living at 2116 James, Cincinnati, OH. Born Troy, OH. Age at time of enlistment 28 and 8/12s years. Assignments: QMC Camp Sherman, OH to Nov 14, 1917 MST 408 QMC to Mar 9, 1918 American Mission Reserve Mallet MT Co 374 to discharge Promoted Sgt Chauffeur May 28, 1917, QM Sgt Nov 16, 1917 Sgt 1 Cl Jan 18, 1919 Campaigns: Somme Defensive, Aisne, Champagne-Marne, Mondidier-Noyon, Aisne-Marne, Somme Offensive, Oise-Aisne, Overseas Jan 12, 1918 to Jun 19, 1919, Hon Disch Jun 26, 1919. (Note: missing is the Defensive Sector) George Healey 217422, Walbridge, Ohio, age 21 6/12 yrs., born in Walbridge, Ohio, white, enlisted October 4, 1917 at Bowling Green, Ohio in 158th Depot Brigade, assigned to 366th Motor Truck Co., 408th Motor Supply Train, Base Section 1 November 25, 1917, transferred to 370th Motor Truck Co., Motor Transport Corps March 30, 1918, transferred to 365th Motor Truck Co. June 17, 1918, promoted to Corporal March 8, 1919, service at Somme Defensive, Aisne, Montdidier-Noyon, Champagne-Marne, Somme Offensive, Oise-Aisne, and Meuse-Argonne, service with A.E.F. January 12, 1918-June 19, 1919, honorable discharge June 26, 1919 Letter: March 15, 1918. (Note: missing is the Defensive Sector). JM<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">

Hi Tim, talking about researching I just did some on this vic and would like you, all interested person's to jump in. JM To all, I just purchased this vic on ebay. believing it to be a 3rd Division medal. With the missing clasp, plus the addition of the star I felt that the person was wounded and that would explain it. In doing my home work I found on the internet some surprising information. I now believe it to be a, U.S. Marine Corps, 5th USMC Regiment, 2nd Division vic. (Belleau Wood – Campagne-Marne) Webb site leads to the 26th Division which releaved the Marines. http://worldwar1lett...ver-there-1918- 1919/champagne-marne-defensive-june-july-1918/ This site, is a USMC site; http://www.scuttlebu...com/strott.html This site, which listed; http://esway.com/fam...ged=initial.ged Richard S. J Reynolds Private, U.S. Marine Corps, 5th USMC Regiment, 2nd Division. Entered the Service from: Ohio. Died: June 13, 1918 Buried at: Plot A Row 7 Grave 73, Aisne-Marne American Cemetery Belleau, France Port Royal Summary Court 45 Co; France 27 June 1917. Aisne; Champagne-Marne, Defensive Sector. American Expeditionary Forces 27 June 1917 to death.. Killed in Action 13 June 1918. Character excellent Notified Mr. Richard S. Reynolds, father, 305 Beech St., Elmwood Pl., Cincinnati, O. File No. 81860 And last, on another site, this; Harold Malcolm Dunipace 116607, Dayton, Ohio, born October 11, 1896 at Bowling Green, Ohio, white, enlisted February 2, 1917 at St. Louis, Missouri in U.S. Marine Corps, assigned to Parris Island summary court, transferred to Norfolk, Virginia April 19, 1917, assigned to 66th Co., 5th Marine Regt., 2nd Division at Quantico, Virginia June 2, 1917, sailed for France June 27, 1917, transferred to Replacement Battalion August 20, 1918, transferred to 205th Brest Casual Co. December 15, 1918, returned to Quantico, Virginia January 17, 1919, promoted to Corporal June 8, 1917, promoted to Sergeant July 1, 1918, service at Aisne, Champagne-Marne, Aisne-Marne, and Defensive Sector, service with A.E.F. June 27, 1917-January 2, 1919, discharged April 22, 1919 Letters: October 26, 1917, November 30, 1917

Hi Tim Thanks for come back. PS, I was not knocking your posting. But it is shame someone had to take at less three US vic apart to get the medals and rings to get more for his clasps. Here is another posting on boxes, note that the two on right (top & botto) are from ART MEDAL WORKS Inc. and one on the bottom is marked “unassembled with pin”. Please also note that 4 out 5 have clasps names stamped on their boxes. Do you know who uses the abbreviation Mnfg and not Mfg. for the word manufacturer. Thanks again, JM