Hauptmann

Nice to be in a forum whith such thoughtful people.

We should start a thread with a "Hall of Shame" and dig out all the honking fakes we keep in the sock drawer.

I forgot to mention that Gold Party Badges are now routinely $1200-$1500 - more for low numbers, military pinpbacks or personality pieces - and I've seen them much higher on dealer sites.

My recollection is the DVG badges were for Nazi-supported unification organizers/supporters in the Alsace-Lorraine border region (Westmark-Lotharingen) with France.

Nice and rare "Ungarn" pin

I too had thoughts about such a section... but was afraid many would feel it would be an educational tool if anyone of a shady sort ever managed to get on and check it out... let them know what they're doing wrong and how to make the fakes better.

But to me, the more we educate our folks the better off we are. And since you have to register here hopefully that would be a bit of a deterrent to any riff-raff who might sneak in.

On prices... geeeeeez! I had no idea! I paid around $300 for mine all those many moons ago. If you wouldn't mind, and just out of idle curiosity as I'd never want to let it go... if it's something you can tell from my pics (which I again apologize for... an Epson scanner is definitely in my future) about what would you estimate it to be worth. Again the very end of the foldover on the pin catch has been gone since I bought it, but other than that it seems to be in fairly good shape.

And mucho thanks on the additional info on the DVG's. Always good to learn as much as we can on this stuff.

Thanks!

Dan

Sam,

Here's what I have been told about the D.V.G. Deutsche Volksgemeinschaft

(German Community) badge or what you call the Westmark badge. It was worn by those Germans living in the Saar region that was given to the French after the first world war that supported the reunification of the Saar and Germany in 1935. Here is another supporters badge from Hungary. These badges were primarily produced for German's living and working in Hungary. Reverse has a rare Hungarian makers mark (A.HYNGAR.BUDAPEST)

That's definitely a beautiful piece. Have never seen one before.

Thanks for posting it.

Dan

Hi Pat,

Couldn't agree more. I've been very lucky in that I've only had a few things that have turned out bad and all things that I've got very little in. I'd probably be very angry were it a piece I had several hundred or thousand dollars in... and there are folks who have had that happen. But I surely would not shoot the messenger. It's definitely a dirty job but a necessary one. As you say it's a learning experience, but on here it remains so for others to see and get a feel for what is good, versus bad and why.

So a huge thank you to all the messengers out there. Keep it coming! You are all appreciated!

Thanks!

Dan

Second on the agenda, a Waffen-SS armband that I would like some opinions on. It is thinner than the DW armband and seems to be a different style. I think it may be a repro, or perhaps just a different variation of the Waffen-SS armband. Any ideas on this one?

Pat

Hi Pat,

Nowhere near an expert on these. I've had quite a number of armbands in the past... only have a few left.

I've looked it up in one of my references which I'd highly recommend to you by the way:

Badges and Insignia of the Third Reich 1933-1945 by Brian Leigh Davis and color plates by Malcolm McGregor ISBN 0 7137 1130 2.

Now granted, this is not a specialized book but is a general reference on many types of cloth insignia from many different organizations of the Reich.

There is nothing pictured to quite match the Red Cross you posted. I've never seen one with a swaz like that... unless it was with the usual German red cross eagle insignia and even then I can't remember seeing that in an armband.

On this one... the Waffen SS... the matching example they give in the book... the W is a different style as is the n. Again this is not a definitive answer but it's all it shows in that book. Nothing for that NSKK one on your other post. I've "never" seen one with a "hanging cord" before. Generally they were all worn on the sleeve... gorgets (which were metal) were the only things worn around the neck that I'm aware of.

But that's not to say it's not an original piece either.

I also have checked my copy of Cloth Insignia of the SS by LTC. Retired. John R. Angolia which is another book I would "highly" recommend... especially if you're going to fool at all with any kind of SS cloth insignia. And that stuff is tricky as it's generally pricey and has been repopped to death! He shows two examples of this armband (in black and white photos) on page 464. Again, neither of them match your's but look closer to what is pictured in the Brian L. Davis book.

Perhaps one of our members with one or both of these references and a scanner would be so kind to post pics of the armbands as pictured for comparison. If so it will be obvious the differences in the W and n as mentioned above.

Again, anything else I'll have to leave to the real experts. Good luck on them!

Dan

* * * * *

Who could refuse a request like that?

Here you are. Enjoy.

Hi all,

I think I see a hint of Donald Pleasence in this guy's face. Great pics! Hope some more info comes to light.

Will be on the edge of my seat.

Dan

Yup, you really need an Epson scanner to do justice to these. A camera just doesn't get the focus, especially at the distance involved. I can't read the text on any of these.

Hi Rick,

I really do think I'm going to get in touch with the powers that be at Epson when I'm ready to buy one and seriously suggest they put you on the payroll in sales. Lord only knows how many of their printers you've sold over time.

I for one can't wait to get mine. I just hope it's as idiot proof as you say because I sure need that feature above all.

But totally agree that it would be great to see up close and personal images of this beauty . And cannot wait to hear all the extra history on it I'm sure ya'll will dig up before the dust settles.

Dan

Also I wonder... were there any monetary prizes given with these awards? I know this was the case in the DDR with the Banner der Arbeit Orders with each grade getting more money....

I think in the early days if you got the gold medal you got a car which was a major deal then!

Doc open awarded in 1967 to Myyra Heljm Alexandrovna

Chris

Hi Chris,

WOW! It just now walked in the door! I LOVE it!!!!!!!! Just beautiful!!!!

Just can't thank you enough! My first matched documented set in these. They are so addictive which is really funny for what are kinda sorta labor awards which so many just ignore. But they seem to have a personality all their own. And to be this addictive to me without having enamel... is verrrrrrry unusual!

Thanks again. I definitely owe you a huge pizza and the grand tour if you ever make it down to my neck of the woods. Mi casa es su casa.

Thanks!!!!

Dan

It looks like I missed some interesting topics while I was gone. I can't remember (but that's fairly common) seeing this topic discussed on a forum before.

Hi Chuck,

Well, it seems I went and posted a good one! Now, as a reward everyone needs to seen me one of these little goodies... my address is...

But seriously, I'm glad the interest is up as everyone is learning tons about these nice little awards. And that's after all what it's all about.

Dan

Hey Dan,

Thanks for the mature reply - I've all but given up offering opinions because of the "shoot the messenger". We all get it in the ear sometimes and no one (including me) likes to find a clunker, but we all have a few in the "live and learn" drawer.

I review a lot of Gold Party Badges for buyers and sellers, and sometimes the news isn't good, but at least some people can save a couple thousand dollars. I saw "Hitler's" Gold Party Badge sold for something like $50,000 last year - a total fake, so with only $10 of your money invested there is some comfort.

Hey,

No problem. Hey, you were just passing it on, and I do deeply appreciate it. Had I ever sold it and "then" found out I would have felt "awful". Kinda figures it would be "the one" I really, really liked too. LOL! Some days...

But it could have been worse... could have found out the GPB belonged to some really awful, horrible war criminal who killed tons of people in which case I probably would have wanted it gone like mucho pronto. Of course I guess it could have, but that's an unknown so at least for now I can sleep at night.

So things could definitely be worse.

I myself keep waiting for the fabled "Hitler's Toothbrush". I'm guessing platinum with gold inlay and lots of swastikas and eagles... and probably Fritz the Tooth giving a tooth decay message engraved on it somewhere. Really, it's gotta be out there! It will probably be the last "great" piece of AH's property to show up and be sold long after we're all gone so we'll miss all the excitement.

But seriously, it is a shame that TR got that way. But there are tons of hobbies that folks fake stuff in. Look at something as simple as those little cast iron banks they used to have. Tons of fakes... I like them but won't even go into the field or touch them with a ninety metre cattle prod! Glassware is nearly the same thing. You have to nearly become a complete expert before you so can much as look much less buy the first piece. No telling how many collections out there are totally bogus. But when you do take the time to study and learn as much as you can and still it happens... sigh. Just got to be too much for me years ago but was fairly secure in most of my stuff. The only ones I really had any suspicions of have been cleared on here a ways back and I was overjoyed! I'm just so happy that there is a place where my brother and sister collectors have banded together to help each other to "fight crime", wear silly costumes... well, perhaps not that... and uphold truth and justice in the world of militaria collecting.

But hey, capes would be nice... really. I think they'd look great... oh wait, I saw The Incredibles... capes, getting sucked into airplane engines... okay, bad thing... bad... definitely bad! Maybe a neat ball cap would do the trick instead!

Well, here's hoping that someday I at least can really figure out who my GPB belonged to as that would be really, really cool and would definitely make my day... except for that above scenario. Someone with an interesting history but who never killed anyone would be just fine.

Gotta run for now... a few more replies to make then I'm going to go try to shake off the effects of a bad sunburn, mostly on my face (Yes! My face hurts!!!! ) that I earned by being a moron and telling my wife about an auction that was being held a block away from the house today. Woke up, thought, do some chores, get them out of the way, make a nice breakfast and relax. Oh now, got to the breakfast part and she'd gone off to see, then come back and grabbed me to go. Then, after fifteen minutes "she" has to go eat... leaving me hungry and frustrated with a bunch of tool guys with endless bank accounts buying up every single solitary thing I was intro'd in. But I did get the most important thing... a Dremel tool with accessories for $21 so guess it wasn't a total loss. Been better had it had a ton of accessories but ya take what you can get. And no pocket or sheath knives... all those tools and no knives! I couldn't believe it! But with those vultures they'd have pushed the prices through the roof. They could afford it, but I couldn't. Oh well.

I'll play some Medal of Honor... blow some things up... shoot some enemy troops and I'll feel much better.

Have a great one! And again I do appreciate the info. I'll file those pieces away under

Thanks,

Dan

I am very impressed: very informative and interesting, guys! I had never paid any attention to these, and yet in many ways they are more specific than an unresearchable Labor Order--certainly when the document makes a set.

I feel my interests... wandering... off... course... can... not... resist... must have... some of... these.

Hi Rick,

Welcome aboard! Now that you've been thoroughly infected... please save some for the rest of us... don't buy em' all up at once!

Great little medals... can't wait to get more myself. Don't know what it is but I sure do love the little things.

Dan / aka "The Troublemaker"

The backs...

Hi Chris,

Now I'm really going to go nuts until I can manage to find some of the green ribbon ones. Just terrific pieces! They're like chips... can't make due with just one... gotta have a whole bag full. I'm afraid I'm thorougly hooked.

Thanks for posting these (drool drool! ). Great pieces one and all.

Keep em' comin'!

Dan

Hi Dan,

Nice Gold Party Badge.

It's always a thankless task to be the bearer of bad news, but the first regular party badge with the wonky pin is a fake. I bought one similar in about 1975 from WWII Inc. for $3. The markings are all wrong ("canted M" in RZM logo, looks like a "M9" prefix only used on tinnies, stamped in marks instead of raised), plated nickel instead of silvered, and the "O" on the front should be round, not oval in RZM pieces. Ususally the red is too dark and the dots underneath are faint.

The HJ badge is also bad I'm afraid. "Otto Hoffmann" never made HJ badges. These came out a few years back and can be found in all colours of the rainbow. They can be found on most repro sites. In any event, diamond HJ badges should be RZM'd, not maker name marked.

Sorry for the bad news.

Sigh. It's been an insane day and now this. Not your fault. It's just gotten (at least for me) where I can't tell the real from the fake anymore. Now I'm officially glad I gave up on TR quite a number of years ago.

I've sold off the majority of what I had and now I'm tempted to just get rid of all the rest of the TR save a few pieces that were gifts or that I got from Jack Angolia as those have great sentimental value... like the GPB. Thanks for admiring that one. Have loved it since the day I got it.

I swear... I spent a ton on reference books and have read them to death and it seems something else always pops up. I guess it's my own fault for not specializing in one thing and just getting into a little of everything.

I don't have much in these... perhaps $10 each but still... just gets me so frustrated. I really did love TR... the history, the stuff. But there's just no fun left in it anymore. It's like the large number of badges Avitas got only to find out they were bad. I hate it when that happens.

Again, don't feel bad... not your fault and I don't shoot messengers.

Live and learn I guess. In fact I had a dream right before I woke up this morning. No idea where it came from but it was like someone was telling me to sell out the rest of my TR and put it towards other things I want/need right now. Perhaps this is yet another sign that I should do just that.

Thanks for the heads up.

Dan

Hi Dan

look at the poor shape of the eagle and the strange needle system. The reverse gives it away as a casting. These eagles were mostly stamped as far as i know. This is not german workmanship

all the best,

Gerd

Hi Gerd,

Well, always try to hope for the best... but yes, you're right. Know all about German workmanship... our VW Golf has nearly 300,000 miles on her and she's still kicking. Don't think she'll ever stop. She's a 97 Harlequin. Supposing eventually we'll need a new engine and tranny, but hardly ever any problems, loves the road and just won't stop.

[attachmentid=40112]

Thanks!

Dan

Pat,

i am terribly sorry, but in my opinion the Buckle and the eagles in post 9 and 11 are without a doubt copies.

best,

Gerd

Hi Gerd,

Really kinda figured on the one in #9... but are you positive on #11? Seems insane that they'd do such an obscure piece. I never even knew what it was till I saw it on that dealers site... unless they're all bad and that info was incorrect. Please let me know as I have one but in gold... with no attachments on the back.

Have nothing in mine but just for the future knowledge of others it would be nice to know.

Thanks so much.

Dan

Thanks Dan

Hopefully the medal is good, it seems to have good crisp details in the lettering and there are no casting lines (like so many of my badges, sigh). I would assume it is ok, so hopefully the ribbon can find a good home.

Cheers,

Pat

Hi Pat,

Seems there are concerns over the Luftschutz... if you don't mind lets try and confirm on that one before wasting a good ribbon on a bad piece. But if we can't confirm it in time I'll include it and if nothing else you can always pop it back inside a letter hence no concerns on heavy postage and customs and leaping through hoops and wrestling alligators and... well, you get the idea.

Dan

As you can see, a little bit of ver-de-gris but I think it adds character>

Pat

Hi Pat,

You'll have a ribbon for this one soon.

Dan

and the reverse, any thoughts?

Hi Pat,

You'll now have a ribbon for this. Will be there soon.

Dan

the back, any opinions on this eagle or the other posted items above?

Hi Pat,

Not sure on this one. That back looks soooooo rough! Generally most TR pieces tend to be finished... even late war stuff tended to be much more finished than it probably should have been. Habits die hard I guess. Unlike the Japanese that basically gave up all attempts at finishing things off and just knocked stuff out and got it out the doors as quickly as they could. Hence alot of their firearms not being recommended for anything other than wall hangers as far as late war pieces go. Just too many shortcuts.

I could be wrong on this as again I'm far from being an expert... but all the stickpins I've ever seen that were authentic (and I've seen a bunch... at Jack Angolia's alone!) were well finished and looked great front and back.

But again there always seem to be exceptions to the rules.

Dan

Here is the other one I have like it, except made out of tombak. It is mounted to a lanyard.

Anybody know the maker?

Thanks,

Pat

Hi Pat,

Definitely need better pics on both the silver and the bronze. But on the bronze it's incorrectly mounted on what appears to be a Schutzenschnur. This is an award for shooting... kind of like our markman badges in the various services. They were used from Imperial times (I believe) all the way up to present day and were also used by the DDR. And they were also service specific with a Kreigsmarine version, Luftwaffe version, etc.

But this is not the correct insignia for the lanyard. I would definitely take the bronze infantry assault off of that (carefully) and then examine and take pics of the reverse of the bronze. It could well have a makers mark or gives clues to the maker and indeed the originality (or not) of the piece. But from this pic I just can't tell.

Hoping once you post the new pics of both that others will comment. I really hope these turn out okay... or at least the bronze.

I used to have several of these but only have my framed set from John Angolia now... along with a stickpin mini like those you see in cased sets on occassion.

Framed set:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=7841&hl=

Stickpin:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=7485&hl=

I'll be keeping my fingers crossed and looking forward to seeing better pics.

Dan

Here is the back, again, ugly pin set-up, bad re-soddering.

Hi Pat,

I'm not an expert on these by far... but I just don't like the look of the pin/hinge setup on this one. Could be wrong and hope others comment as well but just something about it as well as some of the look to the front makes it something I would probably have passed by.

I really hope I'm wrong... have been rooting for you, but better to find out now.

Hope this helps,

Dan

I would suspect from the responses on a couple other posts of mine, that these are tinnies meant for tourists as well. I like the viking ship one, a nice little pin in any regards.

Pat

Hi Pat,

From what I understand Russians were "mad" about collecting all these sorts of little pins. There seems to be a gazillion tons of them! And they're definitely fun to collect. Generally you can find "big" batchs of them on Ebay for not too much money. Good way to get a ton of them, sort through, pick the ones you like and then use the rest for resale or trading stock. Or just have a huge collection, which is not bad either.

Some of my very first Soviet pieces were some similar type pins but with military subjects, etc. I've added more over time, mostly as "extras" folks have sent along with stuff I ordered or bought over the years, or brought back as gifts from trips. I'll have to do up some pics at some point but may wait till I get my "Epson" scanner (See Rick... I'm listening! ) so I can do them justice.

Dan

and the back of this Wehrmacht metal insignia. Any ideas on its originality or purpose?

Hi Pat,

May have found this one. Thought I'd seen it the other day when I was searching out some things.

http://www.thirdreichmedals.com/mini.html

(E992) A stick pin membership badge for the Army Civilian employees. The badge shows the army eagle holding the swastika. This is identical to the eagle that you find on the helmet tropical plate and it is nicely cut out with nice detail. Nice to find. In vgc.GBP ?30.00 Picture

(E1677) An Army civilian employees badge being a down winged eagle holding a swastika. This is mounted on a pin that has been shortened probably by it's original owner. GBP ?20.00 Picture

Seems then that it's for civilian employees of Das Heer.

I actually do have one... but mine is gold? Go figure?! Perhaps it was for civilian employees of the Kreigsmarine. I'll try to do pics of it when Kim and Nick get back home from the Badlands (sounds like something out of Planet of the Apes... "The Forbidden Zone"! ) as they have the camera. Not even sure if that would do it... might have to wait till I can get it scanned one way or another.

Hope this helps!

Dan

Last one is, I believe, a modern German Armed services silver sports badge.

Regards,

Pete

Hi Pat,

I'll second the motion on this one... definitely Bundeswehr.

Dan

Nice KVK collection Dan:beer:

I have my modest collection posted as well and I love these simple awards, a good blue collar award if you will. I especially am fond of the early KVK2 with and without swords, just because I think it looks sharper with the ribbon. I hope to see some more KVKs up in the forum, perhaps some late-war examples? Any out there to show? I tend to stay away from the RK's with my novice eyes (and pocketbook!), but they are nice as replacements for display.

Later,

Pat

Hi Pat,

Hey, from tiny acorns mighty oaks do grow. I started out with one or two pieces myself once upon a time... now I don't even have a count on how many I've got. Drives me nuts sometimes... especially getting ready to move last year! I envy a guy who can toss all his worldly goods into a neckerchief, tie it in a bundle on the end of a walking stick off take off for the next locale. Too much stuff can be nice but it can be a real curse too.

Many thanks for looking and hopefully you'll have more in your set before too long.

Thanks,

Dan

Dan,

I love your collection of KVKs! They are actually one of my favorite awards! The replica KVKs seem to be very accurate!

Paul

Hi Paul,

Many thanks for your kind words! My "purties" all thank you too!

And I honestly never thought anyone would be intro'd in or like the Knight's... almost expected to get some "shame on me's" for having them... or at least putting them with real ones on display. But I do agree, I think they look very nice, very accurate and they sure cost me one heck of a lot less than real ones, even in "good old days" prices. "If" I remember correctly... I think I probably got the swords one for $10 if that, and the other was $16????. Pretty close I think. So for under $30 have both of them... don't think I could find that deal for even one real one. Of course if I do... it sure won't take me long to pull out the wallet on that one. Shoot, gold fillings if I have to!

But needless to say I'm very happy that I didn't put anyone out by showing those... as I really do love the overall effect they give to the display. Now all I have to do is dig up one of each in gold and that'll close that book.

Thanks!

Dan