Hauptmann

My ORS's have been breeding again. This one with many thanks to Nick (Obergefreiter)!

Dan

Amen!

Also I want to say, and I'm sure it's more than obvious, that this is a rather emotional subject for me. On the way home from Devils Lake where I made the last post I thought things through and want to say that I'm going to try my best to step back when needed and try not to let it all get to me as much as it was starting to. I definitely want these threads to continue and I definitely would not want to say anything which might cause it to be closed.

Dan

I fail to see where the problem with reparations is?

Belgium and Northern France were destroyed... none of Germany was.... do you really think that Germany should not have paid for any of this?

Germany came off with little damage to Industry and country... I really fail to see how you think she had no responsability to help rebuild what she did a lot to destroy?

Okay, so where does Austria not to mention Turkey, etc., figure into all this? Why was it ALL the fault of the EVIL GERMANS? This is what gets me! They got all the blame, had to pay all the reparations, etc. Did they kill Franz Ferdinand? Did they push Serbia into a corner and give them no options at all to get out of war? Did they mobilize their millions of men on their borders and basically push everything into high gear?

They IMHOP were merely one of the many dominoes that fell that August. And yes, France and Belgium were basically destroyed... well, sorry, that's what war is all about. That's what makes it something to be avoided at all costs. WAR IS HELL! And sorry but the entire purpose of an military is to destroy things and kill people. That's what they do! And yes, the German army was quite good at it in 1870, 1914/18 and 1939/45. But I guess that during WW1 no one else killed anyone, destroyed anything, blew anything up or in general did anything... it was ALL THE GERMANS.

Again I apologize but after 48 years of hearing nothing but BAD GERMANS/EVIL GERMANS I've just had my fill.

Tell me precisely how they were totally at fault and to blame for starting WW1? Why they had to pay the price and not the Austrians or Turks or anyone else?

????

Dan

Mike, I'm with you all the way on this. Germany got the colonies she got... seemed okay with it. Willy built a navy (he considered it his child and felt totally betrayed by that child at the end of the war when they mutinied) as any colonial power needed to maintain and defend same. The U.S. did the same thing under TR with the Great White Fleet. I'm absolutely convinced that Britain would have been happiest had no one else on the planet had so much as a rowboat... they wanted to rule the waves and that was that. But especially when it came to Germany they did everything they could to best them and "keep them in their place".

And France... all their military has ever done is run around like peacocks strutting their stuff and boasting that theirs is THE BEST military in the world. That certainly showed during the Franco Prussian War and WW1 and WW2, eh? But Germany... consider a small nation comparatively, with the population that it had and yet in both World Wars look at what they accomplished in terms of conquest of land mass and holding out for as many years as they did each time. To this day much of their strategy, tactics and even weaponry (or weapons based on the original German designs) are still used in some of the military forces of the world. Shoot... they finally even decided to copy the Stahlhelm albeit in kevlar because the design is simply superior.

But still it's always "the evil Germans" this and "the evil Germans" that. In movies, novels, TV shows... you name it. You can just hear the evil threatening bad guy music coming up in the soundtrack. Germans are BAAAAAAAAD! It's just like people always talk about the nazi army. You go to a movie and it's the nazi's. Sorry but not all Germans were members of the NSDAP and not all Germans supported them. No more than every single solitary Russian or citizen of the USSR was a member of the communist party. And in many cases one simply HAD to belong in order to keep or progress in a given career field. So you joined, paid lip service and got on with your life. Under similar circumstances I'm sure many of us would have done the same thing. It's so easy to be outside the fishbowl and pass judgements on people in such a system. Oh, why didn't they rise up? Why didn't they refuse? Why didn't they stand up to the nazi's? Well perhaps because the nazi's controlled not only the army, AF, navy, etc., but also the dreaded and feared (for good reason) SS and Gestapo. Such resistance was crushed without mercy... and the people knew it. Plus what did Hitler do when he took over... he instituted... big drumroll here... GUN CONTROL! So like lets all be brave and go up against tanks with our bare hands! YEAH... let's go for it! So how many of us are brave enough to do that? Be honest. If pushed to the max yes, I bet many of us would be willing to do whatever it took.

And to get back to the French, it has been shown over and over and over again that if the French army had put up any resistance whatsoever in the very beginning in the Rhineland then Hitler had given orders for his forces to pull back. So if so much as one French army unit... a bicycle squad for crying out loud... had stood their ground and said you're not coming in... it would have put a stop to things, at least for a time. And had the allies had any backbone at all and stood their ground instead of their constant appeasement it would have stopped Hitler in his tracks. They chose instead to stand by and see what would happen. Perhaps Hitler would eat his fill and push back from the table. Yeah, right!

Sorry to move into a rant but again it comes from a lifetime of someone with a German family hearing over and over again about how bad and evil the Germans were and how they were at fault for everything and that all Germans in WW2 were nazi's, etc. Well, I'm very proud of my German heritage and I feel there is alot to be proud of. Yes, I feel extreme guilt over what the Germans did re: the holocaust, attrocities (they had lots of company in that area along with allied troops... no ones hands are clean) and I feel that Germany and Germans have tried with all their might to come back from that and be good citizens in the family of nations and to make up for what was done. Unlike the Japanese they are taught what happened and they want to make sure it never happens again. I myself have used my TR collection (not near what it once was) to teach others and show that yes, it happened... and it should never be allowed to happen again

Germany is not evil... Germans are not evil. Anyone given a chance and put into the right circumstances is capable of doing monstrous things, whether it be for greed, survival, self preservation, rage over wrongs committed against themselves or their loved ones... you name it. Look at the Soviets... they (and rightfully so) fought back with little or no mercy to the German invaders. But they were pushed to it... pushed into a corner... and came out fighting and doing whatever it took to defeat the invader.

Well, I'm going to climb down off my soapbox and go get some dinner.

And I want to say, I hope I've not offended anyone here as it was not my intention to do so. Again this just comes out of a lifetime of 48 years of pent up frustration. Hoping everyone understands. And yes, I'm sure a good bit of this probably should be in the other thread... and I'll be happy to copy it over to there if any of you would like me to. I didn't intend to go on like this but the words just flowed and any of you who know me realize that I tend to write Gone With The Wind quite often.

Dan

let's not forget about willy's tendency towards megalomania...

A quotation by Bertrand Russell gives his interpretation of

megolamania: "The megalomaniac differs from the narcissist by the fact

that he wishes to be powerful rather than charming, and seeks to be

feared rather than loved. To this type belong many lunatics and most

of the great men of history."

I truly feel much of what people think they know about Wilhelm II comes out of the allied propaganda and such during the war. I've read a number of books on him and have a different view of the man. His grandfather pretty much let Bismarck run things, his father, albeit having his reign cut tragically short due to his throat cancer was, along with his wife much more of a liberal and reformer and no telling what he might have accomplished... perhaps something along the lines of Victoria and Albert. The Willy comes into the picture and I feel due to his young age at that time probably felt he knew better than that "old fogie" Bismarck, just as most of us never realize just how smart our parents truly were till we have ourselves reached their age and level of life experience. Yes Willy loved uniforms and pageantry... so do I and I suspect many of us in the hobby. Does that make us megalomaniacs? Of course not. Yes, he probably tried to overcompensate for his withered arm. Who could blame him... he was cast into the spotlight as leader of the German Empire and people don't like to think of their rulers as having such flaws.

He loved archaeology and went on several expeditions. He was not dummy. His major problem during the war I think was that he basically let his military leaders take over. Hindenburg and Ludendorf basically became virtual dictators of Germany at the end. But whereas Hindenburg was idolized the Kaiser was blamed by the majority of his people for what happened.

I think in his own way Wilhelm truly tried to be the best ruler he could, and had his father died years later and had given him more training and experience there's no telling how much he could have accomplished and how things would have turned out.

But as far as megalomania... Hitler and Stalin definitely fit that description... as does Goering. In fact megalomania is not regarded as a mental illness in and of itself but a contributing factor in other mental illness. People again talk about Wilhelm's love of uniforms and military pageantry... well Tsar Nicholas, King George... most all royalty of the time wore many uniforms including those of their allied nations as was the custom of the time... they had tons of awards given to them, attended parades and marches, wargames, etc. Yes, Nicholas wanted a big navy... George had the biggest. But who says that King George was a megalomaniac? I've never heard anyone say that... just Willy.

Yes there was much more Wilhelm probably could have done to prevent the hammer from falling... and that he could have done better as Kaiser but what leader no matter how great could not have the same said about them. No one is perfect. I think given his circumstances he did the best he could and the best he was equipped and do at the time. Before judging him I think more people should study his entire life and get a feel for what he was like as a man and then try to form an opinion of him. But truly none of us is in a position to judge when you come right down to it. We all have our problems and deal with life the best we can. None of us are perfect.

Wilhelm was not a tyrant, nor a butcher or an eater of babies. He was not evil incarnate. Hitler and Stalin yes but Wilhelm... I truly think he has been terribly misjudged by history. But again, the victors write the histories don't they?

Dan

You da man!!!!!

I know.

Dan

One of the other things I learned from my reading, and I realize this plays off of the German nationalism mentioned earlier, is the massive anti-German feelings and political actions against Germany prior to 1914. The British, French, Russians, and Americans were bound and determined that they were going to be in charge of the world and there was absolutely no place, anywhere on the planet, for the Germans. The allies were allowed to have colonies and subjugate entire populations, but nooooo, Germany couldn't be allowed to join that club! They could have navies that sailed the world, but not Germany! I don't expect to change anyone's opinion, but you won't change mine either; Germany wasn't given a whole lot of choices in trying to become a member of the "World Power Club".

As mentioned in my other thread the same basic thing happened to Japan. The big powers at that time had no interest in letting the Japanese have colonies or an empire either. And that worked out really well too, didn't it?

Dan

Nice Post Claudio,

I think we can agree that Wilsons 14 points were no solution.

It raises the question, was there ANY chance of a solution that would have made all sides happy?

As to the continuation of the war... i repeat my challenge... :-)

Which country was at war with germany from 1914 up until the beginning of WW2 (end of September 1939 it was over for them...)

:-))

The Principality of Andorra.

Dan

Actually I know the MAX show is going on right now so perhaps some of the members are there. May be other things going on. I know weekends can often be slow, especially when the weather is nice and folks are out and about doing things. Hang in there and I'm sure you'll get some replies once things pick back up this week.

Great pics by the way! This is one of my all time favorite Orders and I pray I'll be able to acquire an example some day.

Dan

Dan - some incredible pieces - just shows, tou never know what people have 'tucked' away. Do you think this was the only Torch - or, did they perhaps, have one for each section ? Must be quite a valuable item - I would advise getting a valuation for insurance.

Many thanks! Actually there were quite a few from what I've been able to discover. No telling how many have survived. I've only seen about six other examples listed over the years and many of those in less then the condition mine is in. I've a fairly good idea of value from the listings I've seen including on the main Olympics Memorabilia auction/sales site. This is definitely one that's going to be passed down in the family. It's a beautiful piece and holding it makes you flash back to the games in your mind.

Dan

I'd seen three pictures of DDR uniforms in a couple of uniform books I have... one of a Panzer Major in the double breasted gala uniform, one of the rain pattern camo with the DDR helmet and equipment and one of the Berlin Watchregiment doing a goosestep. Especially that last one... the similarity to the TR uniforms, equipment, etc., was so close and it always made me wonder. Here's a communist, Soviet Block state who are supposed to be anti nazi and yet they nearly copied the uniforms verbatim. And of course so little was available on any of the militaria behind the Iron Curtain for so long that it was just something I had to dive in to. And after collecting Imperial, TR and some West German the DDR seemed the next logical step.

Dan

I inherited the torch holder, ash tray, bell, and several other 36 Olympics items from my father and have tried to add to the collection over the years. It's a fascinating subject. Most people don't realize that the much of the opening and closing ceremonies of the games from that time on were created by the nazi's for the 36 games including the running of the torch, lighting of the flame, etc. They were the ones that truly turned the games into a modern day media extravaganza.

And of course the stadium is still there and is one of the places Kim and I would love to visit if we ever get to travel in Europe someday.

Dan

Olympic awards... the TR 1st and 2nd class Decorations are copies but the medal and the 57 version of the 1st class and medal are original as are the badges, etc.:

One of the bells also sold as souvenirs during the games:

An ashtray which I'm assuming was one of the souvenirs sold during the games:

Hope these fit the bill. First is the torch holder which is shown in one of your photos and talked about in the articles:

Very happy I was able to help out on this one. Always a pleasure to see such things come together. Keep up the great work... and if you ever need more just give me a shout.

Dan

Many thanks! I suspected as much but I don't know a lot about Imperial Russian awards and have very few references that cover any. But that's just what I needed to know.

Just for the benefit of others as well as myself what shows this to be a fake? That ways we'll have it for future reference.

Dan

Hi all,

Just wondered if anyone can tell me it this one is good or bad? I suspect the ribbon is incorrect and probably the kolodka as well but more concerned about the medal itself.

Many thanks in advance!

Dan

Well, my doctor gave the x-ray his best shot but no luck. Don't know if perhaps another type of machine might do anything better but they used a flouroscope and basically the metal was too dense for it to work.

I may see if I can get a dentist to give it a shot but aside from that I've no idea where to go from here.

Will let you know if anything else works.

But my deepest thanks to my doctor, the X-ray tech and the radiologist who so graciously took time from the very busy schedules to try and make this happen.

Dan

Hi,

I let my membership run out some time ago... now suddenly I need something... murphys law...

If anyone is a member, could they look up the following in the bavarianmilitary records?

Vizefeldwebel karl Dreitzel born 24.5.1893, very probably bavarian leib Regiment.

Would be a huge help.

Thanks

Chris

Hi Chris,

Hoping this helps. If you need more let me know what and where it should be and I'll give it a shot. If you PM me your email I'll pop over a larger version of the original document.

Dan

Name:Karl DreitzelBirth Date:24 Mai 1893 (24 May 1893)Birth Place:Stolpe Tellow BrandenburgCombat Arm:InfanterieType of Unit:Infanterie-RegimenterUnit:Infanterie-Leib-Regiment

Source Citation: Bayerisches Hauptstaatsarchiv, München. Abteilung IV Kriegsarchiv. Kriegstammrollen, 1914-1918. 349. Kriegsrangliste: Bd. 6

Source Information:

Ancestry.com. Bavaria, Germany, WWI Personnel Rosters, 1914-1918[database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2010.Original data: Bayerisches Hauptstaatsarchiv. Kriegsstammrollen, 1914-1918. Bayerisches Hauptstaatsarchiv, Abteilung IV Kriegsarchive, München.

Here's a couple more shots. Seems to be an SG and also a W right before the . and then F U... if any of that makes any sense or looks that way to ya'll.

Also if that is FU (it definitely looks like an F to me) then could that be an abbreviated Fusiliers? Note the small S again as in the abbreviated form of Charles.

Also after the Chas. (Charles) could be an H... again let me know what ya'll think.

So close... and yet just out of reach. Very frustrating to say the least.

Dan

Try black light, may help.

Hi Leigh. Many thanks for the suggestion. Okay... took me a few days but managed to dig out one of my old black light bulbs. Put it in a small lamp, managed to set the medal on top of a spray bottle and then tried to do some shots with my camera. Not the most professional setup I'm sure but the best I'm able to do. Oh how I wish I had one of those computer microscope dealies as I bet that would help a bit too. But for what it's worth here are the shots that seemed to come out best with the black light.

Hoping perhaps one of you might be able to make a bit more from these. I'm kind of bleary eyed at the mo from staring so intently at it in the black light. But hope it was worth it.

Let me know what ya'll think.

Thanks!!!!

Dan

General Question - do any of our members have a 'normal' holiday or, is the entire time spent 'looting' the local shops ? (p.s. I ask out of curiousity - I do exactly the same..........)

Generally the first thing we do whenever we get settled into hotels on a vacation trip is to go through the phone book for listings for antique stores, surplus stores, militaria shops, coin shops, etc. We also ask around, check out any flea markets if we're there at the right time and just generally keep on the alert for such things. And of course since the advent of laptops, wireless, etc., we're also able to check things out on the web. Sadly most places we've been haven't had a ton to offer in the way of militaria or surplus stores but it's always something we try to work in along the way. Of course the whole family loves history so alot of what we do is check out old battlefield and historic sites, museums, etc., on our vacations. With the exception of when we went somewhere like Disney World.

Dan