Christian Zulus

Dear Bryan, look at Gnitienko's photograph on p. 132 in the big red volume of the Cavaliers and you will dedect the too wide stitched ribbon of the Glory 1cl beside the 2 cl with the ribbon on the wrong side. My theory is, that comrade Gnitienko ruined somehow the suspension of his new Glory 1 cl and his wife fixed afterwards the ribbon at the rv. in the shown stitched way. Best regards Christian

Dear Dave, I can not follow your "logic" : Medals & document are genuine & authentic, why should Gnitienko's group not be "right" ? Do you assume, that the medals and/or the booklet might be faked and doctored? Best regards Christian

Dear Dave, excellent proposal . But we don't know by now, if the s/n. of Gnitienko's second Glory 2 cl had been actually 3646. The adminstrative error is proven, I think, because the set & doc is authentic & genuine. We have to find out WHERE and maybe WHY the clerical mistake happened. The research is going on . Dave, is there a sort of "fast-track" to get an award card immediatly - like Paul can offer with the special award cards? Best regards Christian

Dear Mr. "slava1stclass", sorry, I had been a little unprecise : I wanted to say, that Fred didn't exist as person, who is really interested in Soviet Orders & Medals or any other awards (except the ones, he received from the Austrian State for being an excellent manager). Fred prefers playing golf . As I remember, Mr. George W. Bush had been also a "real existing" member of the "other" Soviet awards forum for a (very short) time in 2002. He wanted to sell his fathers WW-II-decorations, because George jr. told the members of the "other" forum, that he is short of money due to the ENRON-crash and his father, George sr., allowed him to trade all the glamorous US-Awards. Mr. Bush jr. was a very nice and friendly member, who showed us a lot of photographs and Mr. President was really interested in phaleristics. But within a few hours Mr. President had been banned for lifetime by the owner or some moderator of the "other" Soviet forum. Maybe George W. Bush violated the rules by posting his fathers US-Awards and not any USSR-Awards . Strange and funny things might happen at the www ... Coming back to the topic: Dear Mr. "slava1stclass", I appreciate very much your phaleristic work, which you have done in the research of all aspects of the Order of Glory and I will be among the very first purchasers of your future book about that special award. Doc Riley did a great job for the Order of the Red Star and you are doing a great job for the Glory. What I personally do not appreciate so much, is your style in communication and your (very fast) judgments about "right-minded collectors" and so on: "problem-free set" vs. "raises too many questions", etc. Nobody knows the absolute truth . You might be a wise guy and a well educated man, but not the only "right-minded collector" among the community. It is the Gentleman's Military Interest Club . Best regards Christian BTW: Maybe the moderators could install a "pinned-thread" for your Glory-research - as for the RS - here at GMIC?

Dear Doc, your expertise would be welcome . Best regards Christian

Sergeant Gnitienko's heroic deeds for his 3 Glories Gentlemen, coming back to posting # 4 of this thread http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtop...ost&p=53910 , I want to note the heroic deeds for Sgt. Gnitienko's 3 Glories (before and after the GPW Gnitienko had been a worker): Glory 3 cl: For rescuing 4 (four) severly wounded comrades from the battle field under risking his own life (2nd Guards Army, Crimea, 3rd of april 1944). Glory 2 cl: For killing several Nazi-soldiers (2nd Guards Army, Crimea, 24th of april 1944). Glory 1 cl: For killing 20 (twenty) Nazi-soldiers (51st Army, "Operatian Bagration", Latvia, Jelgava, 2nd of august 1944). A rather fast promotion through the 3 grades of the Order of Glory - maybe too fast . For an infantry-NCO a matching mixture: Killing Nazis & rescuing comrades . Best regards Christian

Dear Andrew, great thanks for your phaleristic-scientific contributions to the topic . Through the years I also got the feeling, that the s/n.-range about 1900 might be very, very typical for Glory 1 cl catch-up awards. The s/n.-range of about 3500 is for me typical for the "Oder" or "Berlin" operations in 1945, but not for operation "Bagration" in summer 1944, where Gnitienko received his second Glory 2 cl. That is true: Gnitienko's "wrong" s/n. of his Glory 1 cl might maybe come close to the s/n. of his second Glory 2 cl . I checked my e-mails dealing with Gnitienko's "wrong" numbered Glory 1 cl from the last years and found a note of PMD - about 2 1/2 years ago - remarking, that Gnitienko's wrong s/n. of his Glory 1 cl is noted in two different and independent records. That might be a very interesting aspect. The fact is, that Sgt. (ret.) Gnitienko received at the 20th of february 1981 the Order of Glory 1 cl with the s/n. 1965 at the Military Commissariat of Charkov. The other fact is, that some office clerk noted at the 29th of december 1980 in Moscow in the special award card, that comrade Gnitienko shall receive the Order of Glory 1 cl with the s/n. 3646. What had happened between Moscow & Charkov and between december 1980 and february 1981 ? My theory is, that a simple clerical mistake had happened. Maybe such clerical mistakes occured more frequently in the 1980s, than in the second half of the 1940s ? I hope, that I can post the rest of Gnitienko's documents and records within the next weeks in this thread. Best regards Christian

far too many questions ..., no right-minded collector ..., etc., etc. Dear Mr. "slava1stclass", Herr Gattringer of Austria never existed - you had been corresponding with me . Many thanks for your fruitful remarks to the topic . I am looking forward to your great book about the "Order of Glory" - and I think, that the whole collectors communinty will be eager to buy a copy of your volume. Please reserve two copies for me. Best regards Christian Zulus BTW: I feel rather strange to correspond with a Mr. "slava1stclass", where nobody knows, which person is exactly behind that great "avatar" .

Many thanks, Andrew Best regards Christian

No booklet-number in the special award card? Gentlemen, a question to our experts: Is it usual, that the serial number of the Cavaliers Booklet "I 503369" is not noted in the special award card? Best regards Christian

Excellent theory, Andrew . Best regards Christian BTW: There had been also rather strict regulations according to the rank of the soldiers, officers and generals, how much share of the "trophy harvest", they were allowed to take legally back home. Marshal Zhukov had some difficulties with the authorities explaning his wagon-loads of antiques, paintings, etc.

Faked Motherlands - 2 cl & 1 cl To find out, if a Crab is made of scrap or if it is genuine and authentic from the mint, is rather easy: - overall impression & quality - details - quality of enamel - specially in the ring-section with the letters - size and form of the letters and the hammer & sickle (two very, very small variations dedected in my own collection!) - weight & size of the order - quality of silver wash and patina - quality of the engraving of the s/n. (rotating-tool-instrument) O.K., that's easy with a Motherland 3 cl, but what, if a Motherland 3 cl had been upgraded to a 2c or even 1 cl? 1 cl is tricky - I only had once an obiviously authentic & genuine some years ago in Vienna in my hand, but first, I didn't had the USD 2.000,- and second I hadn't been completly shure about it. A few days later one of the Russian collectors in Vienna purchased the Crab 1 cl. Generally, the s/n. has to be undoctored and I think, it is still possible to dedect an faked s/n., if you take some very close looks at the field around the engraved numbers and at the style, how the s/n. is engraved. Another point is the colour and quality of the goldplating. I dedected two colour-variations at my Motherlands 2 cl: - lower s/n. have a colour more going to a kind of yellow-gold - s/n. 1604 - higher s/n. (most of them unawarded) are more going to a kind of red-gold - s/n. 2213 Years ago Art Bates from the "other" Soviet forum traded a Motherland 2 cl in about the same s/n.-range of my earlier (1604) Crab with the exact - more pale - goldplating as mine. Maybe the mint "improved" the colour of the goldplating later on . Another fact is, that the goldplating of the tips and ends of the two rockets is always done in a rather "sloppy" way. So - maybe -, if that work would be very, very exact and precise done, maybe the Crab might be a fake ... So, if it would be possible to fake the s/n. in a perfect way and to apply a perfect matching goldplating, than we might have a problem. I don't believe, that Motherland 3 cl with very low s/n., which would match to a 2 cl, will be converted and forged to Motherland 2 cl, because a researched and documented 3 cl from the mid 1970s will yield as much (or even more) money at the market, than an unawarded Motherland 2 cl - my opinion . So I think, that the forgers doctor the s/n. of ordinary Crabs 3 cl. The market value of very low numberd Motherland 3 cl brings some hope into the matter of authentication of Crabs 2 cl - my opinion . Best regards Christian

Gnitienko's entry in the book "Cavaliers of All Three Classes of the Order of Glory" Military Publishing House, Moscow, 2000, p. 132

Gnitienko's special award card - part 2

Gnitienko's special award card - part 1 Gentlemen, Paul sent the special award card ("Cavaliers Card") with the wrong s/n. of the Glory 1 cl to me. Best regards Christian

Glory 1 cl - stamped s/n. (close up)

Dear Soviet, you are welcome - by my guest in Vienna . But my collection is modest and not 100 % complete - I don't have a Suvorov, HSU, etc. Dr. Herfurth in Berlin has a really great collection ... Vienna is worth a trip: The most beautiful of the large cities in Europa, nice hughe Red Army Monument in the center of the City, excellent Military Museum and easy dedactable routes, how the Soviets captured Vienna (it was really a great, fast and swift operation!). Best regards Christian

Gentlemen, very interesting case, Andrew - many thanks . This documented case is a clear violation of the regulations of the statute . Maybe the comrade wanted badly a glamorous Glory, because his comrades had one and maybe our comrade was at good terms with the politruk . Among almost 1 million confered Glories, such "sxxt" can happen . Best regards Christian

Female Person at the medal Sorry Soviet, it is not comrade Stalin - it is a female person, which is at the av. of the medal Best regards Christian

Cavaliers Booklet page 12 & 0X

Cavaliers Booklet page 10 & 11

Cavaliers Booklet page 6 & 7

Cavaliers Booklet page 4 (detail)

Cavaliers Booklet page 4 & 5

Cavaliers Booklet page 3 (detail)