Les-Art

Hi Dave, This is one of the most commonly faked badges as it is a standard 'Michigan Police' die offered by many of the leading and smaller manufacturers. The badge is offered in the cut out applied number version that you have and the blocked in panel with engraved numbers that you have seen. I would say this one is a bad fake as it is of poor quality. I would suggest that if you are not already a collector of U.S. Police Badges then don't start, it is a minefield for new collectors and you will get ripped off more often than you find a good badge. Best Regards. Les

hi Brian, This is a good thread, looks like a proper discussion can be had by all. Here is my two cents worth from a collectors point of view. The title 'Custodian' helmet is used to describe the current 'Bobby' Helmet which are strenghtened inside with foam padding ,have fixed straps (integral to the construction and cannot be removed) and helmet plates fixed on by the manufacturer. These are the ones you see on the TV News during riots in London. The Helmet plates for these generally have fold over lugs to prevent damage to the wearer if the shell is breached by a blow, the older plates had three loops that stuck through the shell and held in place by broken matchstick ends. 'Custodian' Helmets are made in all three shapes you describe. The shape of a 'Bobby' Helmet is indeed taken from the design of a Prussian Picklehaube ,a style of which was adopted by the British Army as the 'home service pattern helmet' ,as mentioned in a post above. Over the years through general use the design has changed for various reasons to the shape you see today. Two of the styles you mention are descendants of this design - Rose top and Ball Top. The Ball top came about due to early Health and safety concerns that the spike on the Military Helmet was to dangerous to the public. The Police 'Home Service Pattern' helmets were the same helmets issued to the Army and only differered in the type of fittings, Blackened or Silvered (NO Gold or Gilt), one of the posts above has a good photo of one of these. The helmets have been variously described as follows: Rose Top - Home Office Pattern. Comb Top - Colonial Office Pattern, City Pattern, Coxcomb. Ball Top - County Pattern. The design on the top of a Comb Top is linked with the first Police Force to use this style, the CITY OF LONDON POLICE, it shows the 'Dragon Wings' taken from the coat of arms of the city. The Comb Top on an ESSEX POLICE (formerly Essex and Southend Constabulary)helmet has a 'Sea Shell' at the front reflecting the location by the sea. I Think Durham Constabulary have a shield with their Coat of Arms on theirs. The design on the top of the Rose Top is indeed a rose when viewed from above, normally in chrome or blackened metal. Some Scottish Helmets had a thistle design. On Colonial Helmets the rose was ,sometimes, replaced by a padded dome shape with three air vents, used by New Zealand, Australia and Canada ( the Toronto Police Mounted Branch still use them). The construction varied by manufacturer, location and age. There are many variations to collect but of special interest is the number of panels, none, two, four or six, knowing this can help to find out if you have the right helmet and badge configuration. Many countries Police have used 'Bobby' Helmets over the years but there is NO link to copying the British Helmet, it is more likley that they have develeoped through the use of military designs. Apart from ex-commonwealth countries- Switzerland, Italy, San Marino,Yugoslavia, Spain, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Iran and Greece all used helmets over the years. Some also used the coxcomb style. Other Helmet designs are used but outwith the scope of this thread. Regarding the inside of helmets, someone asked about it above. The 'Home Service pattern' generally have a green lining, slightly shiny from the the ones I've seen and a leather sweat band adjustable witha thread throught the top part. The 'Home Office pattern' and the other designs made of cork with a cloth cover have the same. The 'Custodion' ones have white foam lining and leather sweat band. they are manufactured 4 or 5 shell sizes so not sure they have adjustable bands. Other variations are on the outside of the helmet ,the band, this can be metal in Black or Chrome, thick plastic, thin plastic or cloth. The Devon and Cornwall Constabulary have a chrome metal rose on either side of their ball top helmet. There are alos variations on the Ball top fixings. Well that's about all I can think of just now. Hope it is of some help. Best Regards, Les

Hi Ed, Regarding the first photo of the Air Police with the Harleys, presumably, do you know when it was taken ? What model and year of motorcycle are they? Are the riders wearing the olive drab flight jacket with the standard issue Air Force Blue uniform ? Do you have any other dates for the photos you have shown ? If you happen to come across photos of the uniformed riders to go with the shots of the bikes on their own I would be interested to see them. It's a good thread and I'm looking forward to seeing any other photos you and others have to post. Best Regards, Les

Hi Ed, Thanks for the additional info on the 'Official' nature of some of these coins, it's appreciated. So ,you know what the next question is going to be , yes ,you guessed it . How do you know which coins are 'official' and which ones are made up for the collectors market? I don't know anything about the collecting of these items as they don't fit with any of my collecting interests, but just wondered if there is a way to tell. One last question, why would you want to have a section on a Military related Forum for all challenge coins that aren't related to the Military? I would have thought that there must be a general collecting Forum out there somewhere, but maybe not as I can't find one that just deals with Police insignias:) Regards, Les

Hi Foofighter, Why create a Special Section for Police ,as a collecting subject within a military based forum, then post military subjects on it, it doesn't make sense. Civil and Military police are two seperate entities and collecting fields IMHO. I would be interested to know why you think they are a linked collecting interest Regards, Les

Hi 2XVeteran, I don't understand your comment can you clarify please:) What do you mean by 'dual roles', do you mean you collect Military and Police items ? When you say you received your FBI coin while serving in Iraq as a soldier, do you mean that it was issued to you by the FBI Field Office as a piece of identification or were you given it by an FBI Agent for helping them out in some way? Military Police would fall into the Military category as they are a Military Unit and NOT a Police department . If you look in many of the sections of this site you will notice that Military Police items are discussed. Some of the threads on this section already are not Police related. like the 'AIR POLICE' which was the Military Police of the USAF, Naval Department Security which is part of the USN, etc. Some exceptions would be the French Gendarmerie and Italian Carabinieri which would fall into both categories as they have both types of units. Coin and Commemoratives have a thread of there own, so you are correct that they could be put in there. Best Regards, Les

Hi Mervyn, There is an appropriate section within GMIC for these coins, wether Police or Military related, it is in the Special Section two down from this one 'COINS and COMMEMORATIVE items' I think it is called. I don't believe you are correct, although always happy to be corrected, in your belief that these coins are being handed out by 'Official' organisations, I think they are really more like a fraternal item given to someone for their friendship or as a souviner. Anyone can obtain these coins at little or no money, just check out the US Ebay there are currently 313 listings for Police and Military Police related challenge coins at starting prices as low as $1.95, some very impressive designs on some of them. I didn't check the number of Military challenge coins but I expect it will be much more. They are not an aid to identification, unless you are trying to pass yourself off as something you are not, I could buy a NZ SAS challenge coin off of Ebay today and carry it around with me but I am not a member of that illustrious unit. However others may feel the need to do this. Having said this I do understand that some units do produce these coins specifically for their members and make sure that only members get them to use as unit identifiers from a cameraderie point of view, but how do you tell which is which when adding one to your collection. A retired Police officer in the USA and Canada gets a badge to show they have served and as an aid to identification should they need to show they are afiliated with the department . A retirement badge is not purchased by the former member of the department ,it is an official item presented at the end of their career by the department, normally with a photo ID card. So in this repect it is not like a challenge coin. Regards, Les

Hi Guys, Just noticed this thread. Thought you might be interested to know that the Gendarme , Marechal-des-Logis, is wearing the standard uniform prior to the Vichy Regime, which changed the insignias on the Kepi and collar. He is wearing his issue belt, which could be worn with or without the pistol holster. Aigulettes would indicate an occassion of some kind as these were not worn on 'normal' duty. This would all indicate that the photo is taken after the 'Fall of France'. The Shako looks like the one issued to St Cyr cadets with a badge removed and the white helmet on the right appears to be the Colonial Helmet used by French forces overseas. So mnaybe they were 'liberated' from the local museum:) Don't know if this helps in anyway. Regards, Les

Hi Mervyn, You stated 'Since thay are almost an official ID is it actually permitted to have them ?'. I agree that Challenge Coins are a collectable field, however they are just collectibles, they hold no 'official' standing as far as Police Departments are concerned, don't know about the military. Anybody with money can have them made up in any design they want to sell into the collectables market place, just think of them in the same way as the collectable lapel pins. I think there is at least one design for the London Metroplitan Police and would expect to see them for all the European countries that have dealers who make up insignias to make money out of collectors. Can I just ask that if this is going to be a thread in the Police section, can we keep it to just Police/Sheriff related coins and put the military ones in the appropriate section. Here is another 'acceptable' use for a challenge coin. When a group of Police Officers, off duty of course, go on a pub crawl the last guy to put his coin on the bar pays for that round of drinks:) This is not a collecting interest of mine as I only collect issued and authorised items, but I'm quite intested to see the designs available. Check out Ebay , there are a few on there. Actually ,I just noticed the heading of this Special Section is 'POLICE MEDALS & COLLECTABLES', would you know why Police related items are more collectable than military ones? I can't see this terminology used in any of the Military Sections, unless I missed it. You have to keep up with the new trends in collecting, Mervyn :0) Best Regards, Les

Dan, The two Sergeant stripes, not a pair, you have are just the 'bog' standard issue used by many forces throughout the U.K. I think the Scottish Police still use them on the dress uniform today. The back view may show more on what age they are but from the front I'd say they are from the 1960's and 70's. Hope this helps, Regards, Les

Hi Mervyn, Yes ,time just flies by nowadays, like yourself I have of loads of projects to get on with but don't have enought time in the day to get any of them completed. Healthwise I'm doing O.K. at the moment, wasn't too good over Christmas which Is why I wasn't surfing the site, just getting back to look now I'm feeling better. Maybe this year I'll work out how to post pictures Look forward to seeing what other caps you have and of course commenting on them:) And for Foofighter, what French Gendarmerie stuff are you looking to see ? Do you have a specific interest ? Best Regards. Les

Hi Mervyn, I haven't seen any new posts from you on the POLICE OF THE WORLD threads ,with the caps you were getting in. Are you still waiting for more caps or are the ones you showed all you got ? Look forward to seeing more soon. Best Regards, Les

John, I think that is the right place for your new thread on UN Military insignias, some great stuff there. Here is the final identification on the bottom row of your photo, left to right; PREVOTE - FORPRONU 1st type. PREVOTE - FORPRONU 2nd type GD PREVOTE - FORPRONU 2nd type GM PREVOTE - FORPRONU local - un-official , no other information available There is an official 3rd type design for this unit, so quite a few more badges are around if you wanted to expand on your French Gendarmerie collection. Look forward to seeing any other Police related insignias you have. Best Regards, Les

Hi John, Some more info on you gendarmerie badges. Third form left on top row; UNIFIL PREVOTE - Escadron Parachutiste d'Intervention. The lower part of the design represents a parachute canopy. Haven't been able to find any details on the design of the badge on the right of the bottom row, so it is possibly a local one. If I find out anything else I'll let you know. Best Regards, Les

Dan, What size is this badge? Did you realise it was damaged, it's missing the screw post on the reverse. Regards, Les