Les-Art

Mervyn, I'm surprised that you don't have a copy of the book on the uniforms of the BSAP, it has colour plates showing the uniforms through the years. I was told this was a standard reference work on the subject and given your location would expect it wouldn't be difficult to find a copy. A BSAP collector should be able to supply the details of it's title, I don't own a copy so can't give the ISBN or correct title, but I can probably find out. Copies have appeared on Ebay recently. Best Regards, Les

Bmsm, Just wondering why you think that this is a POLICE badge, peacekeeping forces are generally the Military with the Police being involved with the Training of Local Police Forces. There is nothing on the design that suggests Police. Would think but just guessing that RUSBAT is an abreviation for RUSSIA BATTALION, don't know of the term being used by the Police. Just my two cents worth. Best Regards, Les

My info is that the armband was discontinued in 1972/3 and was replaced in England and Wales with the wearing of a diced cap band, as used in Scotland first. The regulations changed to state that the cap should be worn while on duty, presumably replacing that aspect of the Duty Armband that says if your not wearing it your off duty. Serving and retired officers could confirm this perhaps. I know it was a big issue to put your cap on when you got out of an official vehicle. Bengullion - Interesting to see how the arm band attached, however I think this may be a 'Met' only way of wearing it ,as most photos show the buckle to the outside between the two loops.

POW, Some of the Royal Park Police used Green and White diced cap bands for a while, perhaps they had this colour of duty band before 1972. The other alternative is that it may not be British Mainland but British Colonial, I have seen photos of duty armbands being used in India, Africa and the caribean Islands. Unfortunately they are old photos so in black & White. I have seen an old colour illustration of the Nigerian Police wearing a Blue and Red duty armband. So I think it is worth further investigation. The Blue and White one you have with the press stud is not a reproduction, it was issue for some U.K. forces in the late 1960's. Also Jamaica Costabulary and Barbados Police used them. Is this any help. Les

bc-Mountie, There was someone here that posted that they have a lot of RCMP kit for sale, check on the various posts. The pea Jacket that 'roKit' is selling is not complete, so you would have to find RCMP buttons and shoulder titles to complete it. The Pea Jacket did not have collar badges only the RCMP or RCMP GRC metal shoulder titles. Les

This is not a Soviet patch it is from the Russian Federation era, so after 1992, I think. The clue to the time period is the Rissian Flag colours which weren't used during the soviet period. This may be a social patch , as I can not think of any occassion when this would be used on a uniform, Interpol being an non uniformed organisation. As far as I aware INTERPOL is an INTERNATIONAL police organisation and not solely European, I think they are Europol . Plenty of Russian stuff around, it's all on Ebay !!! Regards, Les

Hi Mervyn, Well I just worked out what the second cap shown here is, and realised why I didn't recognise it as I was out of collecting for a while. It is BUNDESPOLIZEI last issue before the amalgamation of the POLIZEI and GENDARMERIE. Still looking for dates of issue , so I'll let you know shortly. Haven't you had another box of hats in yet ? It seem to have been awhile since you last listed one. Best Regards, Les

Hi Ed, I would agree with Mervyn, the truncheon is a UK pattern. However it may not have come from the UK, depending on where you picked it up, these seem to be quite collectable in the 1980's ,by U.S. Police Officers on cruise ship holidays in the Caribean, as souvenirs of visits to UK commonwealth islands - Barbados, Bermuda, Bahamas, Cayaman Islands, Jamaica and the smaller islands. They thought it was 'quaint' that the police constables carried 'little sticks' and no guns. Many cops in California and Florida brought them home just as a holiday souvenir , they weren't collectors. So this truncheon may be one from one of the commonwealth police batches, most equipment was supplied from UK suppliers through the Commonwealth Office, I think, in any case a UK governement office. In the UK this type of baton was still being issued in the 1980's, at least here in Scotland they were, not sure what happened in England. Look forward to seeing some of your other batons when you get back from your holiday, or should that be vacation. Best Regards, Les

Hi Nick, You are correct the Wikepedia list is not complete, but relying on anything on Wikipedia without other references is not smart. I guess you get what you pay for. The first statement about the Metroplitan Police in London being the oldest force has already been disproved, by Police History scholars. It is a good starting point but anyone interested in a full list has to do a bit of actual research. As to the prices of of older police items being in some cases cheaper than before, it is quite simply because new collectors want the new items or items that are perceived to be high value items and therefore worth collecting. I suppose it depends on why you want to collect it, to save history or to make a profit in the future. Sadly the latter seems to be the case nowadays. The so called 'high' value items ,I find are being offered at starting prices way beyond their worth on auction sites and in most cases seem to sell. When I started collecting ,an English police helmet plate averaged a £ 5.00 price tag with only the City of London Plates or older black ones fetching more money, now it seems common to pay £ 20.00 for a 'normal' plate, I don't see them worth more than 30 years ago , but I can appreciate that values should rise with age (less of them around) however all those sold 30 yeras ago have gone into collections and in the main stayed there. Does that make them rarer, not sure it does, as there are no more or less than all those years ago. Best Regards, Les

Hi Mervyn, As you say this is the Kepi of a Police Agent of the MONTREAUX POLICE, Switzerland. It was certainly used in the 1970's and may still be current ,however Switzerland as recently started to standardise certain aspects of their uniforms. So this may have been superceded by a Baseball cap. Montreaux is a town within the French speaking Canton of Vaud. The French speaking cantons police have adfopted the French Gendarmerie style and colour of uniforms and the Municipal Police may have adopted a similar style but in Grey/Black colour scheme. I will add to your posts intermitently as I don't keep good health and sometimes don't go onto the computer for days and when I do I do a burst of replies. Best Regards, Les

Hi Ed, Your French Kepi badge is the type used by the Municipal Police across France before the use of the POLICE NATIONAL badge, the one with the outline of France inside a shield as shown on the first Kepi. So that would make it date before 1968. It would be used on a Kepi similar to the Paris one shown, without the district badge. Hope this helps. Best Regards, Les

Hi Speagle and Mervyn, Just had a look at the posts you mentioned in your last post, looks like there is always confusion about colour . The second cap shown here is by insignia an Austrian Police Officers cap but on my computer it looks grey which as we know is not correct. I'll keep researching and see what turns up. I've seen many Austrian Police caps over the years but not one like this. Best Regards, Les

Hi Gordon, I must have misread your post on your NVA camo uniform, I read it that the POLIZEI on the back was added after the fall of the wall, which of course was not the case. Sorry for the confusion. Also on the schako it would be interesting to find out what German Collectors say about it, that you mentioned. The book dates the schako as 1952, that is for the shiny one of course not the ex-Nazi one. I also have to amend my comment on the use of the schako by Bereitschaftpolizei, I have just found a photo showing them wearing it in 1953, so earlier than I had previously discovered. Does this earlier date fall in line with your information. Regards, Les

Hi Gordon. I had nothing to do this afternoon and was checking through the various posts regarding police, I came across this one and would like to add a few comments which I hope you will find useful. Your uniform with schako was used until 1978. The Schako was ONLY used for ceremonial purposes in the 1970's, however it was previously used as a working hat when first issued in 1952 to SCHUPO and was used by the BEPO as a piece of Riot equipment in the 1960's before the issue of a proper Riot Helmet. Two schako plates have been used between 1952 and 1978, as you indicate in your post, your schako has the second issue which was worn up to the end. Your VOPO camo uniform is as you say converted for use after the fall of the Berlin Wall , but not in the way you mention, it has had West German rank eppaulets and the Berlin shoulder patch added to replace the original VolksPolizei Bereitschaft ranks and patch. The VOPO were already using these camo uniforms with the word POLIZEI on the back prior to 1990. Also the VOPO were issued with West German rank eppaulets equivilant to there previous ranks very shortly after the fall of the wall, they were added to the VOPO uniforms as there were not enough west german uniforms to go around, additionally the centre of cap badges were converted by replacing the state arms of East Germany with roundels in German colours from West German caps. Now a few words about arm patches, the SchutzPolizei Berlin had patches in four background colours as follows; 1. Dark Grey for Normal Duty Uniforms 2. Khaki (olive Green) for Utility Uniforms ( search and rescue, civil disturbance, etc) 3. White for Traffic Duty Uniforms ( fixed traffic points, motorcyclists and traffic patrol ) 4. Dark Blue for Marine Duty Uniforms ( River and Lake patrols) Colours for 1 and 2 can be found with lettering for SchutzPolizei and BereitschaftPolizei, 3 with Schutzpolizei and 4 WasserSchutzPolizei. The Bereitschaft Polizei patch you show is the pattern issued in 1952 with the earlier form of star centre. Well that should keep you going for awhile, I'll see what else I can add which may be helpful. Best Regards, Les

Hi Mervyn, The second kepi is French as you mentioned and is from the other national police force of that country. It is the Kepi of the GENDARMERIE MOBILE , one of the three major parts of the GENDARMERIE NATIONALE, the gold braid indicates that the wearer holds the rank of Gendarme. The badge is a flaming grenade used in some form or another by most Gendarmerie forces around the world. The buttons have a different style of grenade. Best Regards, Les

Hi Mervyn, Looks like you have fallen into the trap of assuming that all eagles represent Austria, this is of course not the case. You have a couple of other countries represented here and I think that it would be worth your time to add them as seperate threads, to keep your idea going of having everything from the same country in the same thread. The cap with the red top is from the GUARDIA CIVIL of SPAIN, it is for the rank of Guardia - Conductor, which is a actually a vehicle driver. It was used during the 1970's and possibly later but is no longer worn. The other new White topped cap is from the NATIONAL POLICE of POLAND, it represents the rank of Police Officer. It was used from 1990 to 2006, when a new cap badge was issued. The last one is from the FEDERAL GENDARMERIE (BUNDESGENDARMERIE) of AUSTRIA, it was used by Officer ranks, indicated by the embroidered cap badge and side emblem. This style was discontinued in 2006. Best Regards, Les

Hi Mervyn. The first cap is from the Federal Police of Austria (BUNDESPOLIZEI), used before the current uniform change appeared in 2006. The white top indicates that it is used by a member of the Traffic Unit. This design is used by all non-commissioned ranks. The second cap is a mystery to me. Is it Dark Grey or Dark Green the photo looks grey on my computer ? Is the red braid the same colour as the briad on the white topped cap? Regards, Les

Hi Mervyn. This is indeed French. This is the Kepi of the Prefecture de Police PARIS, worn after 1968 and showing the new 'Police Nationale' cap badge. The '19' badge indicates that the wearer is assigned to the 19th District of the city, this extra badge is ONLY used by the PP. Of note is the possibility that this badge has been added to a standard Police kepi to make it more appealing, as it is not properly centred under the larger badge. You can check this out by looking inside, if the badge attachments are visible, then it has been added. The braid is significant on a Police or Gendarmerie Kepi to indicate rank, this one is the basic model used by the rank of 'Agent de Police' (policeman). Regards, Les

Hi Mervyn, Your guess is way off this time. This is the cap of the National Police of Hungary , the cap badge indicates that it was used after 1990, after the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of communism. The same cap was used during the communist period but with a different badge. The silver braid cap strap indicates the wearer is of an non-commissioned officer rank. Officers have a gold braid cap strap. Regards, Les

Hi Mike, Sorry the sysytem didn't allow me to send the website addresses ,so I'll emal them to you at your normal email address. I had typed them out fully but when I pressed the 'add reply' button and checked that my post had worked I noticed the website addresses where shortened for some reason. Check your email later this evening. Refards, Les

Hi Mike, It's your favourite researcher here!!!! Check these out which should give you the info you seek. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24_cm_M%C3%B6rser_M_98 Once on here check the external Links for a walk round view of this piece of equipment. http://www.thrale.com/thomas_william_thrale_military_service As you scroll down you will find details of the Royal Garrison Artillery contingent sent to china. Hope this helps. Best Regards, Les

Hi Mervyn, First cap is BADEN-WURTEMBURG POLIZEI used pre 1978, worn by non-commissioned ranks- policeman up to Sergeant. Second Cap is HESSEN POLIZEI used from 1978 - 2008, worn by non-commissioned ranks - police officer up to Sergeant. Hope this helps. Best Regards, Les

Hi Paul, What's unusual about the spare cross straps that you do not feel they belong with the other items. Is it just the colour or the design of them ? I have two Stetsons in my collection one by 'Biltmore' and the other by 'Christies'. The Christies is the older of the two and was found locally and had been pressed into service by the Boy Scouts, so has a small hole on the lfet hand side where a scout badge was worn, I haven't dated it as such but would expect it to have been used in the 1950's. The Biltmore one came with my Red Serge which was issued in 1974, so it is at least this old but will be older as the previous owner was promoted to a sergeant after 1976 and the average length of service then for a sergeant was 20 years and a new stetson was only issued when required. Although both hats are stamped with the gold block lettering RCMP and have service numbers inside the hat band there are no dates. The Boulton book does make reference to hat makers so I'll check through it for clues. By the way the buckle on the hat band goes to the left side of the hat with the end facing to the rear. A tip on how to disguise the moth hole at the front of the hat for display, with a soft brissle clothes brush gently brush in the direction of the hole from every angle, as the material is wool felt it will move some of the fibres into the hole. When you are happy with the look stop brushing. It will not fill the hole which will still be there if you stare at it ,it will detract the viewers eye from it as it will not be so noticeable on a display mannequin. I fully understand how you came across this collection and why some items are missing and others are the unofficial ones. You have at least fulfilled your wish for a complete Red Serge and now some work will have to be done to complete your Commissioners one ,although as a named display piece it would look good with the bits you have on one of these dressmaker type torsos with the central stand with some adaption for a head or way of showing the hat off just above it. I think you know what I mean. If you don't mind me saying this, I would split your RCMP collection up into two categories as follows: ISSUED - All the uniforms, equipment and badges (made with yellow and mylar thread) UNOFFICIAL - All the badges made with wire and the Special unit and divisional patches. The monetary value (if this interests you) is in the ISSUED group ,however items from the UNOFFICIAL group may be useful to trade for issued items as they have a collectable value in Canada and Europe. Although wire badges in general are considered valuable in a collection in the case of the RCMP appointment badges the value is diminished as they are much easier to obtain than their issue equivilant. Now since I mentioned wire badges, I should let you know that the RCMP DID issue wire badges, however the wire work is finer and more nicely defined and when you see one beside the other you can easily pick out the difference. I believe you have a good example with your Marine Division badges - KC version is in wire (oldest from the 1940's-50's). QC version with yellow thread (next issue 1960'-1976) QC version with Mylar thread (current issue 1976 - now) QC version in wire (unofficial member purchase) Study these and you will understand what to look out for to fill the gaps. Unlike most Police Forces you have to look at the RCMP as a Military organisation. Well I better stop rambling now and let you get a word in. Best Regards, Les P.S. Do you actually live in Japan ?

Hi Paul, Been doing a bit more digging around for information. I'd like to correct the info I gave you on your cap with the web band, since my info is a little out of date I didn't realise that they did away with the removable felt band and went with a double thick web band, so this cap is the current issue one. Do you have the cross strap for the current Sam Browne, I didn't notice it in your photos ? You mentioned that the reason the holster is on a swivel is for mounted officers, I don't think this is accurate ,I believe that the swivel was put on as members were complaining that the holster was uncomfortable when sitting in a car and by making it swivel it was easier to move it to keep it out of the way while sitting down driving. Remember that the sam browne with cross strap was the working belt for a long time and when the new working belt became the san browne minus the cross strap, the holster would still have caused a problem. Now of course the working belt is completely different and is of the US design. Here is an interesting fact about the musical ride appointment badge, crossed lances, it is the only one that can be worn throughout the career of the member and moves around the Red Serge unlike the others. When actually taking part in the Musical Ride it is worn on the upper part of the right sleeve, if you are a corporal it goes above the stripes and if a sergeant above the stripes and below the crown. Once they have completed their service and go onto another asignment the crossed lances get transferred to the lower left arm above the marksmanship badges. Your CSI patch is fake. By removing the 'GRC' from the patch it is no longer dual lnguage and therefore it does not conform to regulations. Several ERT patches appeared on the collectors market in the early 1990's that were similar were the GRC letters were substituted with ERT and made in several subdued colours. None of these patches are issued or unofficial, they are just plain fakes made to dupe the collector. The equivilent to a CSI would wear the appoiintment badge that has a fingerprint in a circle, you have the unofficial one in gold embroidery. Does your stetson made by Christies have any other markings on the sweat band apart from the makers name ? Is that a moth hole at the front of the crown , if so you should treat the hat as soon as possible as moths love felt!!! AND Wool Serge!!! The riding crop is a VERY RARE find, it was discontinued from use as it was deamed dangerous to criminals as one swipe from it could kill !! I believe it is weighted on the end and is also reffered to as a baton in some parts of the regulations. Hope that you can find long laces for your Strathconas, I think I still have information somewhere that shows how you lace them up without showing a visible knot. Greg will surely know how to do as he wears Strathconas for a living !! They need to be round ones not flat. Hope you don't mind these ramblings just thought since you haven't been collecting RCMP stuff for long you will be interested. Best Regards, Les

I'll check out the date for the amalgamation and post it here shortly. The new force is a Federal Police with the same uniform being worn by both previous forces with designations on the uniform that indicate wether they work in the town or the country. White for the Town/Cities and Red for the Countries reflecking the previous colours used by the Police and the Gendfarmerie. The new working cap is a baseball cap. They do have a Dress cap as well but it is of an unusual design like an old Prussian Army type from the 1920's. I'll send you the website address for the Belgian Police and you can look at the photos on it. Any more question please feel free to ask. Les