Bavarian "Hate" belt and buckle

[Daniel Murphy]

Here is a "Hate" belt I have had for many years. The main reason I purchased this one is because it looks to have been done by a German, not a doughboy. The interesting buckle and the number of various Imperial Russian Buttons on it also helped. One Russian button looks to have perhaps been from a guard unit which most likely could only have come from the Russian Front. As you can see from this shot the maker clipped the loops on the back of the buttons and flattened them out to hold the buttons on.

Dan Murphy

Edited August 25, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Daniel Murphy]

From left to right. 1st section. L-R Early Bavarian officers cockade, Prussian nickle sergeants disk, two Imperial German colonial? buttons, misc. domed buttons. These last could be pre war German or Serbian/Bulgarian/who knows?

Edited August 25, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Daniel Murphy]

2nd section. L-R Brass Bavarian uniform button, painted Prussian pocket button, 5th company German shoulderstrap button, an officers shoulderboard pip, more domed buttons and a Imperial Russian uniform button.

Edited August 25, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Daniel Murphy]

3rd Section. Domed buttons, zinc German 1915 overcoat button, two french buttons, more Imperial Russian buttons including one in nickle (pioneer?).

Edited August 25, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Daniel Murphy]

4th Section. Imperial Russian buttons (including one perhaps guard unit button at the top), more domed and prussian buttons.

Edited August 25, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Daniel Murphy]

5th section. Prussian button, 2 Imperial German Colonial? buttons, Prussian NCO hat cockade (top), early Baden officers hat cockade, 1915 pattern lance corporals collar rank button in zinc (top), Bavarian uniform button and a French engineers button

Edited August 25, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Daniel Murphy]

Close up of the buckle. It is an early steel buckle with a zinc roundel.

[Daniel Murphy]

OK, so the buckle needed a little help. This is much better.

Edited August 25, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Daniel Murphy]

The reverse. It is made like a 1895 with steel and zinc substituted for tombak and neusilber. I would say c. late 1914-1915.

Dan Murphy

Edited August 25, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Dan,

nice item can you explain why its called a "Hate Belt" I could understand if it just contained buttons from dead enemys, but there is some of his sides stuff mixed in there, or are they known as "Hate Belts" because he hated the fact he had to do military service

I would consider them more to be a souvineer item made imediately after the war, I wouldnt rate many chances of being captured and treated well if you were toting a belt full of buttons taken from enemy dead

Also what would the regulations be with regards damaging Prussian property with all these unofficial attachments, you would have a hard job getting the bayonet frog, and ammo boxes on with all the extra additions.

Kevin in Deva.

Edited August 25, 2006 by Kev in Deva

[Daniel Murphy]

nice item can you explain why its called a "Hate Belt" I could understand if it just contained buttons from dead enemys, but there is some of his sides stuff mixed in there, or are they known as "Hate Belts" because he hated the fact he had to do military service

Kevin,

I think these were named "hate" belts by the US doughboys. Basically the idea was you hated the enemy so much that when you killed one or took him prisoner, you would cut off a souvenir button and keep it. I have read first hand accounts of German Prisoners being captured by Brits and the men pulling out their jackknives and cutting off the buttons before they sent him back to the POW camp. It was kind of a reminder that there was one more "good German" in the graveyard or the POW cage. It was just a nickname, like referring to a bomber flying overhead and dropping the "evening hate". Most of the items on these were just picked up wherever, prisoners, enemy dead, etc. I have seen belts brought home by doughboys which had US horse Bridle rosettes, US buttons and collar disks etc. I saw one that was all WW1 french coins (with the hole in the center) that were rivetted to the belt through the holes. I have also seen British made ones that had nothing but British cap badges, collar badges and shoulder titles. So yes they did souvenir their own countries items.

Naturally it was next to impossible to wear equipment on a belt like this. It would have been a souvenired belt and buckle found on the battlefield, to which you attached your trophys as it were. Mainly the reason that I believe it is German put together is there are Russian buttons here that could only have been acquired on the Eastern Front. True, a US soldier fighting in Russia could have found them, but most of the US soldiers that served in Russia c. 1918-1919, had not fought in France or Belgium. Therefore only a German soldier that fought on both fronts would have been able to assemble the selection of buttons etc. on this belt. BTW it is my understanding these were being made by the Fench and Germans before the doughboys went "Over there". They picked up the habit from them.

Dan

Edited August 25, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[peter monahan]

Kev & Dan

It was actually not uncommon for British soldiers in the nineteenth century to collect badges of regiments (alongside whom they'd served or been garrisoned and put them on a belt. Obviously a "spare" belt and not one worn in uniform except maybe on leave or walking out if the sarge was a real nice guy!

The examples I've seen have been Br belts with all Br badges, mostly Victorian stuff. Can't recall if they had a special name. Made a change from meeting other units in the pub and bashing 7 kinds of H++l out of them, I guess! I've also seen one from a Canadian who served in Siberia in 1919 and it was a mix of Br, Russian and, I think, US badges - this was 25 years ago. The owner - son or grandson - sold the belt but kept the two volumes of photos!

My tuppence 'orth

Peter

[Kev in Deva]

Kev & Dan

It was actually not uncommon for British soldiers in the nineteenth century to collect badges of regiments (alongside whom they'd served or been garrisoned and put them on a belt. Obviously a "spare" belt and not one worn in uniform except maybe on leave or walking out if the sarge was a real nice guy!

The examples I've seen have been Br belts with all Br badges, mostly Victorian stuff. Can't recall if they had a special name. Made a change from meeting other units in the pub and bashing 7 kinds of H++l out of them, I guess! I've also seen one from a Canadian who served in Siberia in 1919 and it was a mix of Br, Russian and, I think, US badges - this was 25 years ago. The owner - son or grandson - sold the belt but kept the two volumes of photos!

My tuppence 'orth

Peter

Hallo Dan & Peter thanks for the information I have a belt with British Badges in my collection it can be seen here:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1170&st=320

and continues over to the next page at:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1170&st=340

Feel free to take a look.

Not sure if it was possible for a soldier to have a "spare belt" the British Army were very strong on kit issue and accountability, if a soldier was up one, then a soldier somewhere had to be down one!

While doing research for my book came across many civil & military court-cases with regards "spare kit" being sold to civilians, ignorance of military and civil law not being accepted as an excuse

Kevin in Deva.