Defence Medal Entitlements

[Cam_s]

Hello,

I have my Grandfathers medals from WW2. He was a Sapper in the Royal Engineers. He joined in 1942, landed with the 1st Can Div on Pachino as part of the 3rd Beach Group and was later wounded at Salerno in 1943. He was discharged in 1944 for being medically unfit from loosing part of his leg.

As for medals he has the 1939-45 Star, the Italy Star and the War medal. He does not have the Defence Medal and has no recolection of having be given it or loosing it along the way. He was not conscripted but he did all of his training in England and there for should have it. I am just wondering if there were any reasons as to why he was not awarded this medal.

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Cam

[Tony]

Cam,

I have this explanation:

Service in the Forces in non-operational areas subjected to air attack or closely threatened, providing such service last at least three years.

Non-operational service in the Forces overseas or outside the country of residence, providing that this service lasted for at least one year. If the territory was threatened by the enemy, or subjected to air raids, the duration requirement was reduced to six months.

Civil defence in military operational areas providing these civil defence activities were not eligible for campaign stars.

Members of any of the civilian services entitled to wear chevrons for their war service were eligible for this medal.

Members of the Home Guard resident in the UK, who had completed at least three years service.

I think this part will be the reason for or against his entitlement depending on the length of his non operational roll in the UK (overseas/outside his country of residence).

Non-operational service in the Forces overseas or outside the country of residence, providing that this service lasted for at least one year. If the territory was threatened by the enemy, or subjected to air raids, the duration requirement was reduced to six months.

Tony

[Michael Johnson]

I think Tony is right. After doing his training in Canada he went to England, but before he had served six months there he was on his way to Italy, which was a war zone and qualified him for the 1939-45 and Italy Stars.

[Cam_s]

Hello Guys,

Thanks for the replys.

I think that something got lost in translation. He was with the Royal Engineers, not the Royal Canadian Engineers. He was attached to the 1st Can Div as part of the beach group. He was not a Canadian.

He served in England for a year after enlistment doing training and other such stuff before he went to Sicily.

Does this help change the entitlements?

Thanks,

Cam

[Tony]

Well if that's the case, I think he should be entitled to it.

WWII medals are still being issued, just takes for ever to receive them. Although it's nice to have a piece of paper from the government with your Grandad's name on it, it'll be easier to replace it by buying one at a market. I had my Grandad's medals issued to me in the late 90s.

Tony

[Michael Johnson]

Since he was in his home country, I think he may have had to have three years service.

This site http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceF...efenceMedal.htm gives the qualifications.

[Tony]

Since he was in his home country, I think he may have had to have three years service.

This site http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceF...efenceMedal.htm gives the qualifications.

You are correct Michael. I had instantanoiusly forgotten he wasn't serving overseas, he was UK resident. I must remember, think, think again and then write.

My Grandad served from May 1940 to June 44 in the UK giving him his entitlement.

Tony

Edited October 12, 2006 by Tony

[Cam_s]

Thanks Guys for the information.

That solves the question.

Thanks Again,

Cam

[Michael Johnson]

Still, a very nice group, and dearly won. I have a lot of respect for veterans of the Italian campaign. A collection to each of the allied contingents that saw service would be quite something to see:

Great Britain

Canada

New Zealand

Australia (R.A.A.F, the army having gone back to fight he Japanese)

India

South Africa

Newfoundland (not part of Canada until 1949)

France

Poland

[Colinf]

Hi Cam

I too am perplexed with the determinaton of issuing the Defence Medal, here is a summary of my Father and uncles:

- Uncle in RNZAF - Operational in bombers from July 42 - killed October 42 - Received Defence Medal

- Uncle in NZEF - Operational about Sept 41 - killed June 42 - no Defence Medal

- Uncle RNZN - Operational May 41 - Discharged 1945 (on Achilles & Gambia mostl of time) - no Defence Medal

- Father - RNZN - Nov 41 - Oct 44 - (Killegray minesweeper) Received Defence Medal

Confused, me too!

Best wishes, Colin

Hello,

I have my Grandfathers medals from WW2. He was a Sapper in the Royal Engineers. He joined in 1942, landed with the 1st Can Div on Pachino as part of the 3rd Beach Group and was later wounded at Salerno in 1943. He was discharged in 1944 for being medically unfit from loosing part of his leg.

As for medals he has the 1939-45 Star, the Italy Star and the War medal. He does not have the Defence Medal and has no recolection of having be given it or loosing it along the way. He was not conscripted but he did all of his training in England and there for should have it. I am just wondering if there were any reasons as to why he was not awarded this medal.

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Cam

[Ed_Haynes]

If it makes us feel any better, the DM requirements were immensely confusing to people at the time too.

It was established as, and the requirements drafted as, something like a "Defence of Britian Medal", essentially a "Blitz Medal". It was also a medal that Churchill meddled often and actively in, so the intricate inclusions and exclusions and conditions within conditions may not be such a surprise. As much as a micro-manager as he was, it is amazing he found time to lead a country in war. (For example, a four-page hand-written memo to the Committee on Honours and Awards in Time of War on what the difference was between the terms "clasp" and "bar" when they were being discussed for the various WWII medals -- he even took time to talk with the King specifically on this issue!!)

As the war went on and spread and as more and more non-UK personnel got into the match, the qualifications for the DM were stretched and edited, but they always kept their UK focus (and, many thought, bias). Auckenleck, for example, explicitly attacked the qualifications as "racist" (his word, not mine, so don't blame me). This led to the creation of the various "commonwealth" service medals for India, South Africa, Canada, Australia, etc. as surrogate non-UK-specific Defence Medals (though, in some cases, you could have been awarded both).

As I said, don't worry that the Defence Medal has confusing and mind-numbing qualifications, it was true at the time, it is true now. In an ongoing project on Indian WWII medals and their naming, I am probably spending 85% of my time just trying to disentangle the DM!

For anyone with any interest in these, it is worth investing in a copy of "'Campaign Stars and Commemorative Medals Instituted For The 1939-45 War (The War Office, 11/6/1948)". You can get it through the National Archives (a.k.a. PRO). Go to: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/ . In the upper left corner, enter the PRO file reference: WO 279/557; click "Go to Reference"; then (on the right side) click "Request This"; then follow the instructions for either ordering it digitally (and having it emailed to you); or on paper, (and sent to you in the post).

But do bear in mind that, beyond this, local governments made often extensive regulations that fine-tined and/or forther muddied what the Brits had concocted. In India, these run to something like 10-12 pages, in documents spread out across three different files of two different government departments in the archives.

Edited October 14, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[Michael Johnson]

Fortunately the New Zealand Defence Forcces site has the Regulations online. Here's those fro the Defence Medal:

http://medals.nzdf.mil.nz/warrants/h17-reg.html

Naval personnel, unless they spent time at shore bases, often did not qualify for the Defence Medal.

Canadians received the Defence Medal for service in Newfoundland, since it was not a part of Canada., so counted as overseas service.

[leigh kitchen]

The Defence Medal - 3 years or 6 months or 3 months service qualified for it, depending on type and location of service, although service curtailed by death or injury n some circumstances automatically qualified, as did award of a gallantry medal or decoration.

Excerpt from an appendix to conditions of award of 1946:

Change in the Time Qualification for the Defence Medal.

9. The present time qualification is three years at home in a territory subject to enemy attacks or closely threatened, this being reduced to three months for mine and bomb disposal units of the Forces. The time qualification for military service overseas from or outside the country of residence is twelve months. This period of twelve months is now reduced to six for service in territories subjected to enemy air attack or closely threatened.

The Defence Medal 10 (viii) Special awards states:

Service in eligible categories brought to an end before the period of three years or twelve, six, or three months active service has been completed, either by death due to enemy action when on duty, or by injuries entitling the candidate to a Wound Stripe, completion, will be a qualification for the grant of the Defence Medal.

Also, although the closing date for qualification for Forces personnel was 8/5/45, service overseas from, or outside the country of residence continued to qualify up until 2/9/45.

Depending on service then, the time qualification was between 3/9/39 - 2/9/45, for 3 years, 6 months, 3 months or by death or Wound Stripe earning wound by enemy action.

So a number of the examples given in this thread appear to qualify - eg, the wounded Sapper, the 2 air force fatalities.

Other examples given in the thread may also qualify - I just have'nt got the capacity to address them yet - this stuff does my head in.

I need to sit and scan all the info in the pamphlet & post it here.

Edited November 29, 2006 by leigh kitchen