Need Help on this Uniform

[Guest maddog39]

I recently acquired this Bavarian Officers M-1910 tunic. Everything on the tunic appears to be original to the uniform, however there are some questions. It has an apple green collar with signs of litzen being removed. It has three ribbons in the button hole, one Bavarian Military Merit, Iron Cross and what appears to be a Saxon award. Shoulder boards are white underlay and the "chevrons" in the boards appear to be white or a very pale color, not the light blue of Bavaria. Black piping on the collar and cuffs, red piping on the front and skirt. Bavarian buttons. Any suggestions or comments as to the shoulder straps and green collar? Would a Bavarian have earned a Saxon award?

[Guest Rick Research]

That looks to me, in what limited uniform knowledge I have, to be a Prussian Foot Artillery tunic with Bavarian buttons and incorrect M1915 infantry boards. Maybe the collar was updated for wear during the Transitional Reichsheer period 1919-21 and those collar patches have been removed.

The awards combination is certainly possible. If this had been unaltered to an officer of Captain rank, the tunic even unnamed would have been identifiable from that combination. Those ribbons certainly look like they've always been on there!

[Guest maddog39]

That looks to me, in what limited uniform knowledge I have, to be a Prussian Foot Artillery tunic with Bavarian buttons and incorrect M1915 infantry boards. Maybe the collar was updated for wear during the Transitional Reichsheer period 1919-21 and those collar patches have been removed.

The awards combination is certainly possible. If this had been unaltered to an officer of Captain rank, the tunic even unnamed would have been identifiable from that combination. Those ribbons certainly look like they've always been on there!

Rick,

Thanks, how would one go about researching the name based on the combination of ribbons?

[Mike Dwyer]

I know absolutely nothing about these uniforms, so I'm sure I'm waaayyy off base, but since you mentioned the possibility of a Saxon award, the 15th Bavarian infantry regiment was Kgl. Bayer. 15. Infanterie-Regiment K?nig Friedrich August von Sachsen. I know that doesn't explain the black piping or the green collar, but I thought it was an odd coincidence to have the Saxon ribbon, a 15 on the epaulettes, and the 15th infantry regiment being named for the king of Saxony.

[Guest Rick Research]

Indeed, Mike. But the TOTALLY incorrect branch piping and twice-altered collar make me leery of pinning too much on those STRAPS being "right" on a tunic that is itself otherwise really weirdly wrong for the infantry.

Of course, a regimental history showing this being worn....

As far as identifications from awards: Rank Lists show these, and a number of WW1 award rolls have been published and are in the process of being published. (The latter by me, for instance).

See the "Reference Library" pinned thread down in the Reference sub-forum here for what is currently available, and the pinned "unpublished award rolls" thread in the Imperial German awards sub-forum for what is being done.

As of April 1916 (were this a correct M190 or M1915 infantry tunic), there were only 3 of the then-21 Captains with that buttonhole ribbons combination. Using other Lists, some were transferred to other war units, others would get the Saxon Order later (though that "heavy" a buttonhole "load" tended to predate the M1916 ribbon bars), and some would get other awards. Adding officers who ended up as Captain later...

well, it's a lot of work, but it can be done.

I'm simply not convinced that everything should be staked on the infantry straps when it is a foot artillery tunic. That would just make wild speculation.

Are there loops on there for an Iron Cross 1st Class and perhaps a Wound Badge? IF this tunic was still being WORN after the war (collar, tabs removed in the 86 years since) I'd expect both those. Somebody hard up enough to be so completely non-regulation must have had their normal wardrobe spoiled... by being wounded and unable to replace quickly with the correct type?

I hate speculating.

[Daniel Murphy]

What you have there is an original Bavarian Foot Artillery uniform. This is gleaned not only from the buttons but also the order ribbon precedence (i.e. Bavarian first, Prussian second, anything else third). Unfortunately the feldgrau collar has been replaced by a 1915 style. This happened a lot on heavily used uniforms. At some time litzen were applied (either movie studio or early reichswehr use) and then removed. Had these been slip on boards, I would say they are all wrong. But they appear to be well sewn in and not messed with. I would say they are Bavarian (often the blue and white threads fade out to look all white), so it is possible that this officer transferred from the artillery to the 15th Infantry Regiment and added his infantry boards to his old uniform (stranger things have happened). He then perhaps wore it until his new tailor made infantry uniforms arrived and perhaps even later after being promoted as a field uniform (those boards look a little short, That second pip looks like it is in the buttonhole). So to sum it up, you have an original officers uniform with a replaced collar and right/wrong boards. The Saxon connection as stated by Mike, pulls it all together. So if you find a Bavarian officer with those decorations (MVO4X , EK2 , AO4X ?) who served in the foot artillery and then the 15th Bav. Inf. Regt., this is his uniform.

Dan

Edited November 13, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Guest Rick Research]

Nobody transferred from the foot artillery to the infantry. That's precisely the problem.

Cavalry officers were almost always detached out of their basically useless after 1914 branch (most often in infantry machine gun companies if not aviators or staff types), but essential heavy gunners did not switch into the infantry.

At least in the massively documented Bavarian army.

Bavarian army M1910 tunics had horizontal two button cuffs. The Prussian vertical 3 does show up in period photos (supply "issues" presumably) in random cases, but I have never seen an example where the wrong BRANCH was used. That would be like an infantry officer wearing a cavalry Ulanka.

I am not at all prepared to write off the tunic. A good wartime regimental history (assuming they exist) of the Bavarian 15th Infantry Regiment AND 15th Reserve Infantry Regiment would BOTH have to be checked hoping for a nice officer group photo showing somebody sticking out with this style cuffs.

But there is too much that could go "either way" tunic-versus-boards to speculate.

[Daniel Murphy]

Then the other possibility is that this tunic still has the original 1910 Foot Artillery boards which would have been white based (or piped for an EM) and that a Bavarian 15th Foot Artillery Regiment (or Battalion) was formed during the war and the boards just updated with the new unit number. And no, the Bavarians did not wear the Prussian crossed cannons, only a number.

Dan

Edited November 13, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Guest maddog39]

Then the other possibility is that this tunic still has the original 1910 Foot Artillery boards which would have been white based (or piped for an EM) and that a Bavarian 15th Foot Artillery Regiment (or Battalion) was formed during the war and the boards just updated with the new unit number. And no, the Bavarians did not wear the Prussian crossed cannons, only a number.

Dan

Thanks Daniel and to all who have commented on this tunic. I see it has generated some eye opening discussion. The boards are Bavarian. I lifted the buttions and pips and there are blue fleck strands under the pips and buttons that have not faded. My problem is that I do not have access to any useful data on the Bavarian units or their uniforms. Was there a Bavarian 15th Foot Artillery Regt? I have read where the black piping also represented several other branches like perhaps engineer, telegraph, aviation etc. Was the underlay for arty white on the original 1910 boards? If so then these may be the original boards. One other question. In the US Army we have Arty officers attached to Inf units. Did the Bavarians attach arty officers to infantry regiments? At any rate thanks for the info to date. Rick you mentioned three officers that show up with this award package, do you have access to date that would indicate if any of these three were assigned to arty or the 15th Inf Rgt. keep it coming.

[Daniel Murphy]

My problem is that I do not have access to any useful data on the Bavarian units or their uniforms. Was there a Bavarian 15th Foot Artillery Regt? I have read where the black piping also represented several other branches like perhaps engineer, telegraph, aviation etc. Was the underlay for arty white on the original 1910 boards? If so then these may be the original boards. One other question. In the US Army we have Arty officers attached to Inf units. Did the Bavarians attach arty officers to infantry regiments?

I have references to artillery units attached to the divisions, but heavy (foot) artillery was attached to the army corps, not to the individual divisions. I have found a reference to a 136th Battailon of Prussian foot artillery so there was definitely a massive increase in the number of heavy guns since mobilization. The Bavarian foot artillery entered the war armed with 10cm howitzers. These guns were good, but then you have the wartime production of huge quantities of 15cm, 21cm, 38cm and to a lesser extent, 42 cm guns. All of these guns have to be crewed which led to many new heavy artillery formations being created. I do not doubt that there was at least a Bavarian 15th Foot Artillery Battalion (or parhaps even regiment). It was just a natural progression of the war.

As far as the black piped Brandenburg cuffs on your waffenrock, Only one type of formation used them, Foot Artillery (both Prussian and Bavarian). Other technical units used black piping on the cuffs, but they all had Swedish cuffs with one horizontal row of piping and two buttons side by side. Your Waffenrock is Foot Artillery, it cannot be anything else. According to the 1910 regs all Foot Artillery units (again both Prussian and Bavarian) had white underlay (officers) or white piping (enlisted). I do believe these boards are original to the uniform, they are well sewn in and do not appear to be messed with.

In a great many respects the Imperial German Army differed from the way we (as Americans or English) think it did. We are familiar with our forces so it is common to think everyone did things the same. In the US Army, each Division had artillery whose job was to support THAT division. In the German Army each division had some light artillery, but command and control of all artillery often came from higher up. So that the artillery of one division could be supporting an attack of another division down the line. This is how the massive bombardments were done. If that (1st )division then was raided by the enemy, they may not be able to count on their artillery support. Their artillery could already be busy with another fire mission on orders of the Army Corps or Army. Of course there would be liason officers with the divisional (perhaps even regimental) staff, but they would wear Artillery uniform since they are only attached temporarily. At this time the balloon observers replaced the need for forward observers as we know them now. I hope this helps.

Dan

I have found references to a 10th and a 13th Bavarian Foot Artillery regiments circa 1916. So a 15th Regiment is not out of the question.

DKM

Edited November 15, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[David Gregory]

Cron, the two volumes of "Das Bayernbuch" and the two volumes of "Das Ehrenbuch der deutschen Schweren Artillerie" list the following Bavarian foot artillery regiments:

2 August 1914:

1. bayerisches Fu?artillerie-Regiment (III. 3 March 1915)

2. bayerisches Fu?artillerie-Regiment (III. 17 September 1916)

3. bayerisches Fu?artillerie-Regiment (I. and II)

1. bayerisches Reserve-Fu?artillerie-Regiment (I. and II.)

2. bayerisches Reserve-Fu?artillerie-Regiment (I. and II.)

3. bayerisches Reserve-Fu?artillerie-Regiment (III. and IV. 28 January 1916)

27 December 1916:

4. bayerisches Fu?artillerie-Regiment (I. and II.)

11 May 1918:

5. bayerisches Fu?artillerie-Regiment (I. and II.)

6. bayerisches Fu?artillerie-Regiment (I. and II.)

There were also a few Bavarian foot artillery regimental staffs (1., 2., 3., 123., 124.) and Landwehr foot artillery regimental staffs (1., 2., 3.).

However, there was an independent Bavarian foot artillery battalion numbered 15, which was raised in 1916. The only other Bavarian artillery unit I have found numbered 15 was a sound-ranging troop.

Edited November 18, 2006 by David Gregory

[Guest Rick Research]

I am under the impression that when Prussia went to yellow as Foot Artillery underlay in 1915, so did Bavaria:

[attachmentid=61181]

viz, Bavarian AKO #33730 of 31 March 1916, "goldgelb" for Foot Artillery.

???

I have (see Library thread in Research subforum) the "Waffengedenkbuch der K?nigl. Bayer. Schweren Artillerie" which was published in 1928 as part of the "Erinnerungsbl?tter deutscher Regimenter" series to cover ALL the widely dispersed and often independent batteries of Bavarian foot artillery units for their wartime "mini-histories."

Foot Artillery Battalion 15 got 20 pages, and all senior officers were listed with exact dates of service. The only Captains were:

Hptm Paul Dannemann (ex Fussart 2 and CO 27.10.16-7.3.17)

Hptm dL Robert Mayer (CO 30.5.17 to 12.1.18)

Hptm dR Joseph Seitz (ex Fussart 1 and CO 18.1.18 to demobilization)

and

a "Hptm dL Amann," commander of its 1st Battery (formerly Battery No 630) from 27.10.16 to demobilization

Hptm dR Gustav Hecht, commander of its 3rd Battery (raised from Ers/Fussart 2) from 27.10.16 to demobilization

Hptm dL Hans Wagner, commander of 4th Battery (ex Battery No 284) from 27.10.16 to demobilization

and

Hptm dL Otto Hellmer, commander of its 5th Battery (ex Battery No 469) from 3.4. to "September" 1917

None of these officers-- including the unidentifiable Amann, were recipients of the Saxon Albert Order 3aX or 3bX during the war.

So back to square one.

[Daniel Murphy]

I am under the impression that when Prussia went to yellow as Foot Artillery underlay in 1915, so did Bavaria:

Yes but the frugal Germans did many unauthorized things, like changing the number and not the board. On the close up of the board shown above it looks like a single central number has been removed (either a 1 or a 2). Look closely between the 1 and 5, see where the silver threads are disturbed where they meet each other? A close up of both boards would certainly help. Can we get one? Is possible he earned the AO3bX as a Leutnant or Oberleutnant and is listed as such despite a later promotion?

Dan

Edited November 18, 2006 by Daniel Murphy

[Guest maddog39]

Yes but the frugal Germans did many unauthorized things, like changing the number and not the board. On the close up of the board shown above it looks like a single central number has been removed (either a 1 or a 2). Look closely between the 1 and 5, see where the silver threads are disturbed where they meet each other? A close up of both boards would certainly help. Can we get one? Is possible he earned the AO3bX as a Leutnant or Oberleutnant and is listed as such despite a later promotion?

Dan

Daniel and Rick, thanks so much for your research in this matter. Daniel is correct, there was a single number in the center of the board at one time. Both boards show the holes on the underside. My camera won't do much better than already shown, but will try again. As I mentioned earlier, I am a novice in this area, however should you have any questions that I can assist you with on WW1 US Army Aviation uniforms, please advise. I have conducted extensive research in that area. Maj (Ret) Terry Morris

[Guest maddog39]

Cron, the two volumes of "Das Bayernbuch" and the two volumes of "Das Ehrenbuch der deutschen Schweren Artillerie" list the following Bavarian foot artillery regiments:

2 August 1914:

1. bayerisches Fu?artillerie-Regiment (III. 3 March 1915)

2. bayerisches Fu?artillerie-Regiment (III. 17 September 1916)

3. bayerisches Fu?artillerie-Regiment (I. and II)

1. bayerisches Reserve-Fu?artillerie-Regiment (I. and II.)

2. bayerisches Reserve-Fu?artillerie-Regiment (I. and II.)

3. bayerisches Reserve-Fu?artillerie-Regiment (III. and IV. 28 January 1916)

27 December 1916:

4. bayerisches Fu?artillerie-Regiment (I. and II.)

11 May 1918:

5. bayerisches Fu?artillerie-Regiment (I. and II.)

6. bayerisches Fu?artillerie-Regiment (I. and II.)

There were also a few Bavarian foot artillery regimental staffs (1., 2., 3., 123., 124.) and Landwehr foot artillery regimental staffs (1., 2., 3.).

However, there was an independent Bavarian foot artillery battalion numbered 15, which was raised in 1916. The only other Bavarian artillery unit I have found numbered 15 was a sound-ranging troop.

David.

Thanks Much!

[Guest Rick Research]

Nobody who held Hauptmann rank, as listed above, got EITHER class of the Albert X.

I looked.

[Guest maddog39]

Nobody who held Hauptmann rank, as listed above, got EITHER class of the Albert X.

I looked.

Rick,

Thanks.