Heer Thoughts on a SS armband

[armybrat43]

Hello to all the collectors out there,

I have a SS armband that I picked up and would like some thoughts about it being original or a fake. It is a one piece design on linen material. It also has the german ordnance marked stamped in ink. I tried the burn test on a small piece of the thread and it passed. I have some pictures below of the armband. I feel that it is a original item, but any thoughts about the armband would be a great help. Thanks and merry christmas

Edited December 21, 2006 by armybrat43

[armybrat43]

Here is the armband turned inside out so as to make the stamp clearer

Edited December 21, 2006 by armybrat43

[armybrat43]

sorry double post

Edited December 21, 2006 by armybrat43

[CurtD]

I don't believe the SS ever used printed armbands like this one.

[peter monahan]

I don't know from SS but even in the photo the stamp looks awfully crisp and dark for 65 year old ink.

Edited January 18, 2007 by peter monahan

[armybrat43]

I don't know from SS but even in the photo the stamp looks awfully crisp and dark for 65 year old ink.

I did some research on the armband. It is not SS but a political armband. These armbands were later made of linen and were printed onto the linen. The stamp is legit, I darken the picture in order for the stamp to show more clearly. And I did a burn test on a piece of the thread and it passed as far as not being made of a polyester.

[CurtD]

I did some research on the armband. It is not SS but a political armband. These armbands were later made of linen and were printed onto the linen. The stamp is legit, I darken the picture in order for the stamp to show more clearly. And I did a burn test on a piece of the thread and it passed as far as not being made of a polyester.

How did you determine this is a politcal armband? The black stripes were reserved for the SS. And this dosn't look like any SS armband I have ever seen.

[armybrat43]

How did you determine this is a politcal armband? The black stripes were reserved for the SS. And this dosn't look like any SS armband I have ever seen.

I have to make a correction on the armband. Most of my information I have obtained from other websites. I picked up a book yesterday called "Detecting The Fakes" by Robert Lumsden. The book clearly shows this armband as a SS armband. The book states on page 125 that armbands sizes colors and lettering differed considerably. Some were hand made some machined made on cotton, wool or linen. And that silk screen printing on cotton or linen were widely used. The book also states on page 126 that fakes were commonly made of thick felt were commonly backed or unbacked with thick modern red paper fibre. The swastikas are typical machine embroidered as one piece with a wide border of synthetic thread. And that printed fakes are also circulated on canvas rahter then the correct wool,cotton, or linen. The armband I have pictured is clearly made of linen, does not have synthetic thread, And has the correct stamp. But seeing how there were so many variations of armbands, I guess even authors of books could be wrong sometimes. And from what I have found so far in my opinion this website is the best WW2 militaria forum out there on the web .

[CurtD]

That book is a good book, but it is also over 20 years old and is very general in nature. The author, Robin Lumsden, is a member of this forum. I have that book and about 12 others devoted to SS cloth.

For some reason, it looks like there are no SS cloth collectors reading this forum. You might want to contact him (his ID = "Robin Lumsden") and point him to this thread and get his opinion. I see he has posted in the SS awards forum a few rows down.

The world of SS cloth is the biggest minefield there is. You need to get at least 12 books and study for several years. Then you should assume everything is fake until proven genuine. Otherwise, you are going to be out a lot of money.

This looks like something made for a movie or theater. There are a lot better fakes on the market right now.

[Kev in Deva]

I have to make a correction on the armband. Most of my information I have obtained from other websites. I picked up a book yesterday called "Detecting The Fakes" by Robert Lumsden. The book clearly shows this armband as a SS armband*.

The book states on page 125 that armbands sizes colors and lettering differed considerably. Some were hand made some machined made on cotton, wool or linen. And that silk screen printing on cotton or linen were widely used. The book also states on page 126 that fakes were commonly made of thick felt were commonly backed or unbacked with thick modern red paper fibre. The swastikas are typical machine embroidered as one piece with a wide border of synthetic thread. And that printed fakes are also circulated on canvas rahter then the correct wool,cotton, or linen. The armband I have pictured is clearly made of linen, does not have synthetic thread, And has the correct stamp. But seeing how there were so many variations of armbands, I guess even authors of books could be wrong sometimes. And from what I have found so far in my opinion this website is the best WW2 militaria forum out there on the web .

Hallo Armybrat43

I think when making a quote from a book you need to include all the information and not just selected pieces, The book by Mr. Lumsden shows on the top left of page 123, a picture of two armbands (Plate180) similar in design to yours, the following description is given:

Plate 180 SS Armbands: original (above) and fake (below). The original is of heavy multi-piece construction, with a silken tape swastika and borders and silk central disc sewn onto a strong unbacked wollen cloth base. The swastika alone comprises six seperate parts.

(Clearly not the same as the picture from Armybrat 43).

The reproduction has the swastika and disc embroided as a single piece, witha 4mm wide border of synthetic thread. The band itself is of felt, 3mm thick, backed with a heavy modern paper fibre.

Note that the disc has not been properly attached to the band, making the swastika appear to squint.

(Again clearly not the same as the picture from Armybrat 43).

So information from page 123 bears no relation to Armybrat43 armband.

The book states on page 125:

"Armband colours, sizes and lettering styles differed considerably. The best examples were of multi-piece construction, with silken tape and/or bullion thread sewn on to a heavy wollen cloth or lightweight linen base to form the appropriate design.

Others were hand-embroided in bullion thread on wool, machine-embroided in cotton thread on wool, cotton or linen, or machine woven in cotton and / or silk threads.

Bears no resemblence to the one in this post.

Silk screen printing on cotton was widely used in the production of standard NSDAP swastika armbands and regulation Volksturm examples.

By the end of the war make shift emergency armbands were being hand stencilled in paint or waterproof ink on any scrap of material available.

To me standard NSDAP swastika armband is not the same as a SS type, they were always known to appreciate quality even late in the war.

The faking of armbands has been restricted to the swastika armband and its derivatives, which are constantly in great demand. Fake bands are commonly in thick felt, either unbacked or backed with a modern heavy red paper fibre. The swastika and disc are typically machine-embroided as a single piece, witha wide border of synthetic thread. Printed reproductions also circulate on canvas rather than the correct wool cotton or linen."

Again the book by Mr. Lumsden makes no indication to any type stamping on the armbands, stamps have been faked as much as anything else iii reich. Please can you post a close up of the stamp?

I have glanced through the books "Badges and Insignia of the THIRD REICH 1933-1945" by Brian L. Davis ISBN1-85409-512-9

And

"UNIFORMS OF THE SS, collected Edition Volumes 1-6" by Andrew Mollo and Hugh Page Taylor ISBN 1-85915-048-9

and can find no reference to any economy, late war armbands for the SS.

Hopefully some of the more knowledgeable members will jump in here as well to identify just what you have, but for the moment I am scepticle about its authenticity.

Kevin in Deva.

Edited January 19, 2007 by Kev in Deva

[armybrat43]

That book is a good book, but it is also over 20 years old and is very general in nature. The author, Robin Lumsden, is a member of this forum. I have that book and about 12 others devoted to SS cloth.

For some reason, it looks like there are no SS cloth collectors reading this forum. You might want to contact him (his ID = "Robin Lumsden") and point him to this thread and get his opinion. I see he has posted in the SS awards forum a few rows down.

The world of SS cloth is the biggest minefield there is. You need to get at least 12 books and study for several years. Then you should assume everything is fake until proven genuine. Otherwise, you are going to be out a lot of money.

This looks like something made for a movie or theater. There are a lot better fakes on the market right now.

That's great! I have several of his books, great information and even better seeing how he visits the forum.. As far as the armband goes, I really didn't pay much for it, came with some other items I traded for. And I do not collect SS militaria due to my Opa. He was in the war and was a german soldier and he did not approve of the SS due to what they stood for. Frankly if he were alive and knew I had this armband I don't think he would approve. He was one of the reasons I started into collecting WW2 militaria. I mainly posted it to get others input on the item. I learn a great deal by doing this. And I hope it helps others also to learn. I noticed that there are a lot of people viewing these topics, so maybe they can get helpful info from them. And add thier opinions about it also. As far as the armband goes, I will not keep it in my collection.

Kev In Deva

Thank you for your input but to reply to your comments above. I stated which book I had found some info on this armband. I don't see were I made any direct quote just a quick overview from what I had read. I'm not here to trick anyone. Also I don't see where I stated that this armband looked anything like the one pictured in the book Also I don't recall typing anything about the book having anything about the stamp on the armband. Also I never stated that this was a "orignal late war SS armband". I wasn't sure what organization it belonged to. This is one reason why I posted it here on this forum to learn about the armband and hear others opinions on the subject If you read my first post, I asked for other opinions. Also I do not claim to be a expert on these types of things. Also, seeing how there are many collectors out there. I assumed that many would have this book as well as many other books to refer to and get the "direct quote" if they cared to. And here is a picture of the stamp up close. I turned the armband inside out and darkened the picture some to get a clearer outline.

Also kind of off topic but I posted a WW2 EKI I wasn't sure of and had picked up in a trade. I didn't know a lot about the cross so I posted it here. The first opinion on the cross was that it was fake so I assumed it was Then the last opinion was that it was a original in rough shape. At any rate, I learned a great deal about iron crosses from that posting.

Edited January 19, 2007 by armybrat43

[Kev in Deva]

Kev In Deva

Thank you for your input but to reply to your comments above. I stated which book I had found some info on this armband. I don't see were I made any direct quote just a quick overview from what I had read.

I'm not here to trick anyone. Also I don't see where I stated that this armband looked anything like the one pictured in the book Also I don't recall typing anything about the book having anything about the stamp on the armband. Also I never stated that this was a "orignal late war SS armband".

I wasn't sure what organization it belonged to. This is one reason why I posted it here on this forum to learn about the armband and hear others opinions on the subject.

If you read my first post, I asked for other opinions. Also I do not claim to be a expert on these types of things. Also, seeing how there are many collectors out there. I assumed that many would have this book as well as many other books to refer to and get the "direct quote" if they cared to.

And here is a picture of the stamp up close. I turned the armband inside out and darkened the picture some to get a clearer outline.

Also kind of off topic but I posted a WW2 EKI I wasn't sure of and had picked up in a trade. I didn't know a lot about the cross so I posted it here. The first opinion on the cross was that it was fake so I assumed it was Then the last opinion was that it was a original in rough shape. At any rate, I learned a great deal about iron crosses from that posting.

Hallo armybrat43,

Firstly, I did not say you were out to trick anybody, your words were "The book clearly shows this armband as a SS armband." whereas the use of one word would have made a clearer statement to me, as in "The book clearly shows this type of armband as a SS armband."

I was making a comment to show that your type of armband did not fit the late war types.

I was also making a comment with regards the stampimg to show that in none of my books any mention of a stamping occured.

I also refered to it as a late war armband (as I was not sure if there ever there was such a SS type like this made).

Also a point to note, would be the distance between the top of the circle and the top line and the distance from the bottom of the circle to the bottom line!!

These were my comments and opinions and I was not putting words in your mouth.

Kevin in Deva.

Edited January 20, 2007 by Kev in Deva

[armybrat43]

Kevin and Deva

No problem, just wanted to make myself clear on my intentions. And what I meant by "clearly shows it as a SS armband" in the beginning of my post, were the two black stripes on the top and bottom of the band. Also, the stamp being a forgery, on what other items has this stamp been found? That way I can keep a eye out for it and others who read this thread might also, thanks

[Robin Lumsden]

Sorry, but in my opinion the armband at the top of this thread is a poor fake...........either totally repro or an original printed NSDAP armband tarted up to look like SS.

The borders are wrong and the Ortsgruppe validation stamp on the back is in the wrong place and completely unconnected to the SS.

[armybrat43]

Sorry, but in my opinion the armband at the top of this thread is a poor fake...........either totally repro or an original printed NSDAP armband tarted up to look like SS.

The borders are wrong and the Ortsgruppe validation stamp on the back is in the wrong place and completely unconnected to the SS.

Thanks for the information on the armband and no apologies needed, I have a question concerning the stamp placement. Were there certian regulation requirement for the placing of stanps on armbands? Or was this more or less left up to the manufactuerer of the armband as to the placing of the stamp? Thanks

[Robin Lumsden]

The stamps were placed by the issuing authority (unit).....not the maker. They had to be visible, so they should always appear on the outside. Some armbands were issued for events, and the issuing stamp would tally with the bearer's ID. It was a bit like German car number plates, with the State logo.

Not all armbands were stamped, of course. In fact, most were not.

[armybrat43]

The stamps were placed by the issuing authority (unit).....not the maker. They had to be visible, so they should always appear on the outside. Some armbands were issued for events, and the issuing stamp would tally with the bearer's ID. It was a bit like German car number plates, with the State logo.

Not all armbands were stamped, of course. In fact, most were not.

Thank you for the information concerning the stamp. so a unit would place the order for the armbands. Then after recieveing them would sometimes stamp them with thier unit stamp. So if a certain unit, be it SS, luftwaffe, medical, etc.. would have a personal stamp assigned to them with unit designation. Would these stamps somtimes also include the unit location? And would armbands issued earlier, such as pre WW2 bands be more likely to be stamped then later war year bands? Or did it mainly depend on who was issuing the armbands? I never realized how complex these armabnds were.