Johann Meisters Kriegsjahre

[Dave Danner]

A little literary allusion in the thread title. Brownie points to the first person who can ID it.

And to the actual thread. Flipping pages, I came across a rather interesting 1914 Saxon rank list entry.



That's a lot of little crossed swords icons. For those unfamiliar with the Saxon abbreviation system, that translates to:

• Kgl. Sächs. Militär-St. Heinrichs-Orden, Ritterkreuz, or Royal Saxon Military Order of St. Henry, Knight's Cross
• Kgl. Sächs. Verdienstorden, Ritterkreuz 1.Klasse mit Schwertern, or Royal Saxon Merit Order, Knight 1st Class with Swords
• Kgl. Sächs. Albrechts-Orden, Offizierkreuz mit Schwertern am Ringe, or Royal Saxon Albert Order, Officer's Cross with Swords on Ring
• Kgl. Sächs. Albrechts-Orden, Ritterkreuz 1.Klasse mit Schwertern, or Royal Saxon Albert Order, Knight 1st Class with Swords
• Kgl. Sächs. Dienstauszeichnungskreuz, or Royal Saxon Long Service Cross
• Großherzogl. Badischer Orden vom Zähringen Löwen, Ritterkreuz 1.Klasse, or Grand Ducal Baden Order of the Zähringer Lion, Knight 1st Class
• Kgl. Bayerischer Militär-Verdienstorden, Offizierkreuz, or Royal Bavarian Military Merit Order, Officer's Cross
• Kgl. Bayerischer Militär-Verdienstorden, 3.Klasse mit Schwertern, or Royal Bavarian Military Merit Order, 3rd Class with Swords
• Herzogl. Braunschweigischer Heinrich des Löwen Orden, Offizierkreuz mit Schwertern, or Ducal Brunswick Order of Henry the Lion, Officer's Cross with Swords
• Fürstl. Lippischer Hausorden, Ehrenkreuz 2. Klasse, or Princely Lippe House Order, Honor Cross 2nd Class
• Großherzogl. Mecklenburgischer Greifen-Orden, Komturkreuz, or Grand Ducal Mecklenburg Order of the Griffon, Commander's Cross
• k.u.k. Österreichischer Orden der Eisernen Krone, 3. Klasse mit Schwertern, or Royal and Imperial Austrian Order of the Iron Crown, 3rd Class with Swords
• Kgl. Preußischer Roter-Adler-Orden, 3. Klasse mit Schwertern am 2.mal schwarz und 3.mal weißgestreiften Bande, or Royal Prussian Order of the Red Eagle, 3rd Class with Swords on the twice black and three-times white striped ribbon.
• Kgl. Preußischer Kronen-Orden, 2. Klasse mit Schwertern am Ringe, or Royal Prussian Crown Order, 2nd Class with Swords on Ring
• Kgl. Preußischer Kronen-Orden, 3. Klasse mit Schwertern, or Royal Prussian Crown Order, 3rd Class with Swords
• Kgl. Preußischer Orden "pour le Mérite", or Royal Prussian Order "pour le Mérite"
• Fürstl. Hohenzollernscher Hausorden, Ehrenkreuz 2. Klasse, or Princely Hohenzollern House Order, Honor Cross 2nd Class
• Fürstl. Reußisches Ehrenkreuz, Offizierkreuz, or Princely Reuss Honor Cross, Officer's Cross
• Herzogl. Sachsen-Ernestinischer Hausorden, Komturkreuz, or Ducal Saxe-Ernestine House Order, Commander's Cross
• Kgl. Württemb. Orden der Württembergischen Krone, Ehrenkreuz, or Royal Württemberg Order of the Württemberg Crown, Honor Cross
• Kgl. Württemb. Orden der Württembergischen Krone, Ritterkreuz mit Löwen und mit Schwertern, or Royal Württemberg Order of the Württemberg Crown, Knight's Cross with Lions and with Swords

Almost four years ago, we had a thread on WAF on "Prussian quartets". One occasionally sees medal bars for Saxon officers with the so-called "Saxon trio", Saxony's three military orders - the Military Order of St. Henry, the Merit Order with Swords and the Albert Order with Swords. In that thread, we asked about potential recipients of the "Prussian quartet" of military orders - the pour le Mérite (plM), the Red Eagle with Swords (RAOx), the Crown Order with Swords (KOx) and the Royal House Order of Hohenzollern with Swords (HHOx). If you add the Iron Cross, though not an order, you have a Prussian quintet. Among those identified as "Prussian quartets" were Ludwig von Estorff and Victor Franke. Von Estorff had a RAOx, KOx and HHOx from the colonial wars and a plM in 1917. Franke had all four in the colonial wars. Among those that missed the quartet was the Red Baron, who had no KOx. Other quartets were mainly generals and field marshals.

With Herr Meister, you can see that even before World War I began, he had the Saxon trio. But this Saxon was also 3/4ths of the way to the Prussian quartet. So the big question, and one of the purposes of this thread, is: did he make it?

This is what I know. Johann Meister was apparently born in 1862. As a major, he commanded a detachment (called "Abteilung Meister" in some accounts) in the Herero War, fighting in December 1904 in the battles of Naris and Rietmond and in Groß-Nabas in early '05. He commanded German troops at Stamprietfontein, January 2-4, 1905, which I think was part of the Groß-Nabas battles. The plM apparently came in November 1905 and was apparently awarded at the same time as Franke's.

In 1914, he was, as noted in the rank list excerpt above, commander of 2. Kgl. Sächs. Grenadier-Regiment Nr. 101 Kaiser Wilhelm, König von Preußen, and at the same time Flügeladjutant to the King of Saxony. He received the Iron Cross 1st Class on October 22, 1914 (and presumably the EK2 sometime before then). On April 7, 1916, he received the Commander 2nd Class of the Military Order of St. Henry as commander of the 45. (kgl. Sächs.) Infanterie-Brigade. This, by the way, was the same award date as Max Immelmann's Commander 2nd Class.

In September 1916, Meister took command of 40. (4. kgl. Sächs.) Infanterie-Division from Leo Götz von Olenhusen (Götz von Olenhusen received the Commander 2nd Class of the Military Order of St. Henry on September 13, 1916). Meister led the division to the end of the war.

The Ehren-Rangliste has him as a Generalleutnant a.D.

So, my open questions are:

1. Does anyone know anything else about Meister?
2. Does anyone have any pictures of Meister?
3. Did he receive the Royal House Order of Hohenzollern, thus completing the quartet/quintet?
4. Any idea if he received the Commander 1st Class of the Military Order of St. Henry?

Edited September 23, 2013 by Dave Danner

[slava1stclass]

A little literary allusion in the thread title. Brownie points to the first person who can ID it.

Wilhelm Meisters Lehrjahre by Johann Wolfgang von Goethe. Jesuit-educated men rise to any challenge.

Regards,

slava1stclass

[Bernd D]

Have a look at Thies catalog, 28. auction, 10 Dec 2005. You will find a picture of Meister and his medal bar (No 40, page 40).

[Bernd D]

GM Johann Meister was awarded the Commander 2nd Class of the Military Order of St. Henry 20 March 1916 as commander 45. InfBrig.

[Dave Danner]

QUOTE(Bernd D)

GM Johann Meister was awarded the Commander 2nd Class of the Military Order of St. Henry 20 March 1916 as commander 45. InfBrig.

"Sachsen in Großer Zeit" says 7 April. Might one be the date the award was dated and the other the date it was conferred?

QUOTE(Bernd D @ Feb 24 2007, 04:26 ) ←

Have a look at Thies catalog, 28. auction, 10 Dec 2005. You will find a picture of Meister and his medal bar (No 40, page 40).

Thanks!

This appears to answer at least one question. Apparently no Kgl. Hohenzollernscher Hausorden, so no quartet. It does, however, raise a few questions.

1. Why is the RAO3x now on the regular two-white stripe ribbon rather than the three-white stripe version, as in the earlier photo and the rank list entry? Is this because he was not a Prussian, or because he is actually wearing the RAO4x, so the other ribbon wouldn't really signify anything?

2. Where are the swords on the Bavarian Militär-Verdienstorden? It's hard to tell, but they appear to be there in the photo.

3. Why is the Orden der Württembergischen Krone now on the Friedrichs-Orden ribbon?

4. Where are the swords on the Orden der Eisernen Krone? Was that a rank list error or a 1930s mounting error?

As for WW1 awards besides the St. Henry and EK, other than the Hamburg Hanseatenkreuz, if any, they appear to be commander grade or otherwise not on a medal bar. We can at least surmise that Baden upgraded his Zähringen Löwen Ritterkreuz 1.Klasse off the pre-war medal bar, though.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Dave Danner

[Bernd D]

The date for the St. Henry is out of Erhard Roth, Die Verleihungen des k?niglich s?chsischen St. Heinrichs-Orden und seiner Medaillen im Ersten Weltkrieg 1914-1918.

He could not get a Kgl. Hohenzollernscher Hausorden on his medal bar because he was to high in rang during the WW I.

I saw the medal bar at the auction.

The medal bar was made after 1934 and the guy who sewed it did a very poor job. He used wrong ribbons on the W?rttembergischen Krone and RAO3x. He did not knwo or had none. You will find wrong ribbons on bars after 1934 quite often and they are a different quality, too.

The condition of some orders is also very poor. The swords of the MVO were broken off.

On the Eiserne Krone are no swords, its "Kriegsdekoration" , i.e. the laurel wreath (Lorbeerkranz).

During WWI he was not awarded any Baden decoration. According to Roth?s list. He just did not wear his civilian decorations, he had more, on his medal bar.

He got the Saxon Verdienstorden Komturkreuz zweiter Klasse mit Schwertern 18.06.1915 and the Albrechtsorden Komturkreuz Erster Klasse mit Schwertern 15.11.1917 (Roth).

Ido not not about further decorations during WWI.