leigh kitchen Posted April 13, 2007 Posted April 13, 2007 This pair are unusual - a British Campaign Service Medal with clasp NORTHERN IRELAND with a UN Medal taking Precedence.I think that this is a UN Congo with its original ribbon (not the later different coloured one exclusive to the UN Congo, which I think was introduced about 1962) but minus its CONGO bar - it's never had one fitted by the looks.It's been suggested that this recipient - a Corporal in the WFRs (Worcestershire & Sherwood Foresters) who has an Irish surname may be an ex-Irish army man who's then joined the British army. One for Kev............. 1
Kev in Deva Posted April 13, 2007 Posted April 13, 2007 (edited) Hallo Leigh, thanks for posting this set, I would like to say that even if he had prior service in the Irish Army before joining the British Army* the UN medal should rank after the British Service Medal as per British regulations.A total of 6,000 Irish soldiers served between July 1960 and May 1964, a very small number of these soldiers served twice on the U.N. mission and an even smaller grop of men actually managed 3 tours (Each tour lasting 6 months).I have also heard that the "Congo" Bar is unofficial and I have never seen it in wear by any serving Irish soldiers who were Congo veterans, during my 21 years 174 days service in the Irish Defense Forces.* One gentleman who I was acquainted with had joined the Irish Army as a young man, took an unofficial leave of absence because he was bored, and joined the British Army, eventualy he served with the elite "SAS" upon leaving the British Army, he returned to Ireland, surrendered himself to the Irish Military Police and faced his court-martial, as he was never heard to say he was going to desert the Irish Army, they, the Irish Military Authorities, could only charge him with being an illegal absentee, he pleaded guilty, served 3 months detention in Spike Island Military Prison, Co. Cork and came back to my Battalion as a Corporal, the man was a pleasure to work with, when ever you went on patrol with him it was done the way he had done it while away over the pond, and in warmer climes.The gentleman shall remain nameless for obvious security reasons, but I can say for definate he was not a spoofer, I spent some interesting evenings with him looking at some very interesting original pictures showing him at work overseas in a certain hot country and this was a very long time before the "Gulf" war, Kevin in Deva Edited April 13, 2007 by Kev in Deva
leigh kitchen Posted April 13, 2007 Author Posted April 13, 2007 I have'nt got this mans serial number to hand, I'll have to get the medals & check the CSM, that'll give an idea of when he joined the British army.The British were giving equal status to UN medals by 1980, so if this man was still in the British army he would or at least could wear them this way presumably?
Ed_Haynes Posted April 13, 2007 Posted April 13, 2007 (edited) Remember, please, that the same medal and ribbon combination was also used for UNTSO (1948-67) and UNOGIL (1958) as well as the first ONUC ribbon (1960-64, with clasp) and for UNGOMAP (1988-90, with clasp). The intent was that this medal would be THE peacepeeping medal and ribbon for the UN, while the Korea medal would be the UN medal for places where people got shot. This overly simple plan never stood up, of course. Someday, I hope someone looks at the relevant UN records and tells the tale.Irish troops served in all four: UNTSO, UNOGIL, ONUC, and UNGOMAP.For reliable information on UN medals, see http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/medals/ although it does not (strangely) include UNOGIL. Megan's site -- http://www.medals.org.uk/united-nations/un...s--ribbons1.htm -- does.For more information on peackeeeping operations, see http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/dpko/index.asp. Edited April 13, 2007 by Ed_Haynes 1
Kev in Deva Posted April 13, 2007 Posted April 13, 2007 (edited) IRISH CASUALTIES IN THE CONGO WITH (O.N.U.C.) FROM JULY 1960 to MAY 1964. Name. Unit. Cause of death. Date of death:Company Sergeant F. Grant 33rd battalion Died after operation, 3 October 1960.Colonel J. McCarthy. HQ ONUC. Traffic accident. 27 October 1960.Lieutenant K. Gleeson, 33rd battalion, Niemba ambush, 8 November 1960.Sergeant H. Gaynor, 33rd battalion Niemba ambush 8 November 1960.Corporal P. Kelly, 33rd battalion Niemba ambush 8 November 1960.Corporal L. Dougan, 33rd battalion Niemba ambush 8 November 1960.Private M. Farrell, 33rd battalion Niemba ambush 8 November 1960.Trooper T. Fennell, 33rd battalion Niemba ambush 8 November 1960.Private M. McGuinn, 33rd battalion Niemba ambush 8 November 1960.Private G. Killeen, 33rd battalion Niemba ambush 8 November 1960.Private P. Davis, 33rd battalion Accidental shooting 10 November 1960.Trooper A. Browne, 33rd battalion Beaten to death at Tundulu, after surviving Niemba Ambush. 11 November 1960.Corporal L. Kelly, 33rd battalion Accidental shooting 24 December 1960.Corporal L. Kelly, HQ ONUC Traffic accident 30 August 1961.Trooper E. Gaffney, 35th battalion Killed in action 13 September 1961.Trooper P. Mullins, 35th battalion Killed in action 15 September 1961.Corporal M. Nolan, 35th battalion Killed in action 15 September 1961.Corporal M. Fallon, 36th battalion Killed in action 8 December 1961.Sergeant P. Mulcahy, 36th battalion Killed in action 16 December 1961.Private A. Wickham 36th battalion Killed in action 16 December 1961.Lieutenant P. Riordan, 36th battalion Killed in action 16 December 1961.Corporal J. Geoghegan, 36th battalion Accidental shooting 28 December 1961.Corporal J. Power, 36th battalion Natural causes 7 March 1962.Captain R. McCann, HQ ONUC Traffic accident 9 May 1962.Corporal J. McGrath, 38th battalion Traffic accident 21 March 1963.Commandant T. McMahon, HQ ONUC Natural causes 28 September 1963.May They All Rest In Peace.Kevin in Deva. Edited April 13, 2007 by Kev in Deva 1
Ed_Haynes Posted April 13, 2007 Posted April 13, 2007 (edited) Since there is so much confusion over the ONUC medal (and, being ONUC, it deserves this confusion), I put up http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=17262.Though, remember, please, that our hypothetical Irishman could have served in UNTSO, UNOGIL, ONUC, or UNGOMAP. Edited April 13, 2007 by Ed_Haynes
Kev in Deva Posted April 13, 2007 Posted April 13, 2007 (edited) Hallo Ed If I remember correctly U.N.T.S.O. was reserved exclusively for Officers with regards the Irish.In 1958, 50 Irish Officers were appointed as Observers with U.N.O.G.I.LKevin in Deva Edited April 13, 2007 by Kev in Deva 1
Ed_Haynes Posted April 13, 2007 Posted April 13, 2007 Hallo Ed If I remenber correctly UNTSO was reserved exclusively for Officers with regards the Irish.Kevin in Deva Not sure, the UN site only gives raw numbers for each country (and increasingly spotty numbers as one goes back in time). I can only give reliable figures on Indian UN service.
Kev in Deva Posted April 13, 2007 Posted April 13, 2007 Hallo Ed,Just located this at: http://users.bigpond.net.au/kirwilli/unservice/unservice.htmIreland's History with the U.N.Ireland became a member of the United Nations in 1955. In 1958 fifty Irish officers were appointed as observers with the U.N. Observers Group in the Lebanon. Since 1958 the Defence Forces has had a continuous presence on peacekeeping missions, mainly in the Middle East. On the 28th July 1960 Lt-Col. Murt Buckley led the men of the 32nd Irish Battalion out to the Congo. Twenty-six men died in the Congo, 9 died in one action, the Niemba ambush. However, in recent years, following the end of the cold war, Irish Defence Forces Personnel have also found themselves in many other parts of the globe as observers and peacekeepers. Personnel have served in the five countries of Central America, Europe, Russia, former Yugoslavia, Cambodia, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait, Belgian Congo (Zaire), Namibia, Western Sahara, Somalia South Africa Cyprus Lebanon and East Timor Military Observer Missions are manned by unarmed military observers. In 1958 the Defence Forces made their first contribution to peacekeeping when some fifty officers were assigned to the United Nations Observer Group in Lebanon (UNOGIL). Since 1958 the Defence Forces has continuously had personnel overseas as observers on peacekeeping missions.Peacekeeping Force Missions are manned by armed contingents from member states placed under the command of the United Nations. From 1960 to the present day the Irish Defence Forces have continuously provided an armed contingent to the UN, except during the period May 1974 to May 1978. These contingents were normally an infantry battalion of approximately 600 personnel or an infantry group of over 400 personnel.Kevin in Deva. 1
Kev in Deva Posted April 13, 2007 Posted April 13, 2007 Hallo Ed, heading slightly off topic here, but I think you might find the figures of interest.From the Irish Defence Forces Website: http://www.military.ie/overseas/missions_list.htmDefence Forces Service Overseas. LIST OF MISSIONSUN Observer Group in Lebanon (UNOGIL). 28 Jun 58 to 18 Dec 58 Irish commitment: 50. UN Truce Supervision Organisation (UNTSO). Location: Middle East. 18 Dec 58 to date Irish commitment: 427. UN Operation in Congo (ONUC). Location: Zaire. 28 Jul 60 to 30 Jun 64 Irish commitment: 6191. UN Temporary Executive Authority (UNTEA). Location: West N.Guinea (West lrian). 21 Aug to 04 Oct 62 Irish commitment: 2 UN Peacekeeping Force in Cyprus (UNFICYP). 27 Mar 64 to date Irish commitment: 9647. UN India-Pakistan Observation Mission (UNIPOM). 23 Sep 65 to 22 Mar 66 Irish commitment: 14. Second UN Emergency Force (UNEF II) Location: Sinai Desert. 30 Oct 73 to 06 Sep 74 Irish commitment: 573. UN Disengagement Observer Force (UNDOF) Location: Golan Heights. Jun 74 to Aug 98 Irish commitment: 1. UN Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL). 13 May 78 to date Irish commitment: 31,413. UN Headquarters New York (UNNY). 27 Nov 78 to date Irish commitment: 17. UN Inspection Teams (UNIT) Location: Baghdad and Teheran. 24 Jun 84 to 31 Jul 88 Irish commitment: 9. UN Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP). 28 Sep 87 to 26 Jun 92 Irish commitment: 2. UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) Location: Beirut. 01 Feb 88 to 30 Jun 92 Irish commitment: 2. UN Good Offices Mission in Afghanistan & Pakistan (UNGOMAP). 25 Apr 88 to 15 Mar 90 Irish commitment: 8. Office of the Secretary-General Afghanistan, Pakistan (OSGAP). 16 Mar 90 to Dec 94 Irish commitment 5. Office of the Secretary-General Afghanistan (OSGA). Dec 94o 30 Jul 96 Irish commitment 2. UN Special Mission Afghanistan (UNSMA). 01 Jul 96 to 26 Oct 99 Irish commitment: 3. UN Iran-Iraq Military Observer Group (UNIIMOG). 14 Aug 88 to 10 Mar 91 Irish commitment: 177. UN Transition Assistance Group in Namibia (UNTAG). 16 Mar 89 to 07 Apr 90 Irish commitment: 20. UN Observer Group in Central America (ONUCA). 03 Dec 89 to 27 Jan 92 Irish commitment: 57. UN Observer Mission in El Salvador (ONUSAL). 21 Jan 92 to 31 May 94 Irish commitment: 6. UN Iraq-Kuwait Observation Mission (UNIKOM). 18 Apr 91 to March 03 Irish commitment: 69. Second UN Angola Verification Mission (UNAVEM II). 03 July 91 to 09 Sep 93 Irish commitment: 18. UN Mission for the Referendum in Western Sahara (MINURSO). 20 Sep 91 to date Irish commitment: 120. UN Advance Mission in Cambodia (UNAMIC). 16 Nov 91 to 15 Mar 92 Irish commitment: 2. UN Transitional Authority in Cambodia (UNTAC). 15 Mar 92 to 15 Nov 93 Irish commitment: 36. UN Military Liaison Office In Yugoslavia (UNMLO-Y). 12 Jan to 05 Apr 92 Irish commitment: 7. UN Protection Force ® Location: Yugoslavia. 28 Mar 92 to Jan 96 Irish commitment: 29. UN High Commission for Refugees-Yugoslavia (UNHCR-Y). 20 Dec 92 to 18 Mar 93 Irish commitment: 4. UN Operations in Somalia (UNOSOM II). 08 Aug 93 to 15 Jan 95 Irish commitment: 177. UN Mission in Haiti (UNMIH). 21 Sep 94 to 31 Mar 96 Irish commitment: 6.UN Military Observer Mission Prevlaka (UNMOP). 01 Feb 96 to Dec 99 Irish commitment: 7. UN Preventive Deployment Force in Macedonia (UNPREDEP). Feb 96 to 28 Feb 99 Irish commitment: 8. UN Transition Authority in Eastern Slavonia (UNTAES). Feb 96 to Jan 98 Irish commitment: 10. UN Special Commission-Iraq (UNSCOM) HQ New York and Iraq. 23 Sep 96 to March 03 Irish commitment: 5. UN Mission in East Timor (UNAMET). 28 Jun to 24 Oct 99 Irish commitment: 3. UN Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK). 05 Jul 99 to date Irish commitment: 14. UN Transitional Administration in East Timor (UNTAET). Feb 00 to May 02 Irish commitment: 181. UN Observer Mission in Congo (MONUC). 27 Jun 01 to date Irish commitment: 12. UN Mission Ethiopia / Eritrea (UNMEE). Nov 01 to Jun 03 Irish commitment: 630. MINUCI Jun 03 to date Irish commitment: 4. UN Mission in Liberia (UNMIL). Nov 03 to date Irish commitment: 971. Organisation on Security and Co-Operation in Europe (OSCE). Location: Vienna. 16 Jan 84 to date Irish commitment: 21. Organisation on Security and Co-Operation in Europe Georgia (OSCE). Location: Georgia. 13 Apr 94 to Jun 99 Irish commitment: 11. Organisation on Security and Co-Operation in Europe (OSCE) Location: Bosnia Herzegovina. Jan 96 to date Irish commitment: 39. Organisation on Security and Co-Operation in Europe (OSCE). Location: Croatia. Jan 98 to date Irish commitment: 21. Organisation on Security and Co-Operation in Europe (OSCE). Location: Albania. Jan 97 to date Irish commitment: 11. Organisation on Security and Co-Operation in Europe Verification Mission in Kosovo (OSCE-KVM). 09 Dec 98 to 30 Jun 99 Irish commitment: 5. Organisation on Security and Co-Operation in Europe (OSCE - Kosovo). 01 Jul 99 to date Irish commitment 8. EC Monitor Mission (ECMM). Location: former Yugoslavia. 16 Jul 91 to date Irish commitment: 203. EC Task Force in Russia (ECTF-®). 29 Jan to 31 Dec 92 Irish commitment: 3. EC Task Force in Yugoslavia (ECTF-(Y)). 25 Feb 93 to 31 May 96 Irish commitment: 7. EU Mission South Africa (EUNELSA). 24 Jan to 31 May 94. Irish commitment: 2. International Conference on the Former Yugoslavia (ICFY). Sep 94 to date Irish commitment: 5. WEU Brussels. 09 July 96 to date Irish commitment: 11. ICC Mons. 12 June 97 to date Irish commitment: 3. Stabilisation Force (SFOR). 30 May 97 to Dec 04 Irish commitment: 600. Kosovo Force (KFOR). 29 August 99 to date Irish commitment: 1068. International Force East Timor (INTERFET). 12 Oct 99 to Feb 00 Irish commitment: 44 International Security Assistance Force (ISAF). 02 to date Irish commitment: 21. European Union Force (EUFOR). Dec 05 to date Irish commitment: 53. Goal, Concern, Red Cross & Tr?caire. 14 Apr 93 to date Somalia, Angola, Rwanda, Russia, Albania & Macedonia. Irish commitment: 44. Irish Rwandan Support Group (IRSG). Aug to 05 Dec 94 Irish commitment: 39. 1 Irish Honduran Support Group (1 IHSG). Jan to 12 May 99 Irish commitment: 27. Irish Refugee Agency Macedonia. May to June 99 Irish commitment: 2. 2 Irish Honduran Support Group (2 IHSG). 29 Jan to 13 Feb 00 Irish commitment: 21. 3 Irish Honduran Support Group (3 IHSG). 6 Jan to 10 Feb 01 Irish commitment: 15.Figures end at here, so this is somewhat dated and probably needs an update. Kevin in Deva. 1
Ed_Haynes Posted April 13, 2007 Posted April 13, 2007 Yeah, Ireland has been one of the most active contributors to UN peacekeeping, in part because they have been viewed as inoffensive and fair by the various contending parties. See who serves the most, see who serves the least, and you learn something important about the world.
leigh kitchen Posted April 13, 2007 Author Posted April 13, 2007 (edited) Ah, right, I thought I'd narrowed the likely UN service down to Congo, although when I bought this pair I was wondering they were to a British member of a BAT team or similar.Kev, re Irish UNMOs - there were certainly some in East Timor's UNMISET Mission in 2003 - 04. Edited April 13, 2007 by leigh kitchen
Ed_Haynes Posted April 13, 2007 Posted April 13, 2007 Yes, and I forgot to mention that UK forces served in NONE of the UN missions that qualified for this medal, with or without clasp.
Kev in Deva Posted April 13, 2007 Posted April 13, 2007 Ah, right, I thought I'd narrowed the likely UN service down to Congo, although when I bought this pair I was wondering they were to a British member of a BAT team or similar.Kev, re Irish UNMOs - there were certainly some in East Timor's UNMISET Mission in 2003 - 04.Hallo Leigh The list I posted of Irish U. N. Missions is fairly extensive but some of the Irish Missions need updating, for example I have no idea how many Irish are in Lebanon (UNIFIL) at the moment, Also what must be remembered are the guys who served multiple missions I know a guy who had 14 trips in Lebanon thats just over 7 years on "mingy" trips, and it would not surprise me if some had logged more time.Kevin in Deva.
leigh kitchen Posted April 13, 2007 Author Posted April 13, 2007 (edited) Yes, and I forgot to mention that UK forces served in NONE of the UN missions that qualified for this medal, with or without clasp.That narrows the field down a little bit.Kev shows - UN Truce Supervision Organisation (UNTSO). Location: Middle East. 18 Dec 58 to date Irish commitment: 427.UN Observer Group in Lebanon (UNOGIL). 28 Jun 58 to 18 Dec 58 Irish commitment: 50.UN Operation in Congo (ONUC). Location: Zaire. 28 Jul 60 to 30 Jun 64 Irish commitment: 6191.UN Good Offices Mission in Afghanistan & Pakistan (UNGOMAP). 25 Apr 88 to 15 Mar 90 Irish commitment: 8.ONUC still seems most likely, but then he may not be Irish army etc Edited April 13, 2007 by leigh kitchen 1
Ed_Haynes Posted April 14, 2007 Posted April 14, 2007 (edited) I'd agree, Leigh. Statistically, historically, and phaleristically, that's about all that makes sense. Makes a nice little group nicer! Oh, PS, just so you can see it -- UNGOMAP on this medal: Edited April 14, 2007 by Ed_Haynes 1
leigh kitchen Posted April 14, 2007 Author Posted April 14, 2007 It's interesting but not surprising that the materials used & finish of the UN "general purpose" medal disc has varied so much over the years, a proper bronze metal, through a matt, flecked copper coloured metal (rumoured to be a compressed cardboard substance), to dark bronze colour over base metal & a dull brass looking material.I could see the temptation to dip UN medals to a uniform bronze or gilt finish if you have 2 or 3 on your bar.
Ulsterman Posted April 14, 2007 Posted April 14, 2007 Who is the medal named to? I know many Woofers-and odds are I can track him down.
Kev in Deva Posted April 14, 2007 Posted April 14, 2007 That narrows the field down a little bit.Kev shows - *U.N. Truce Supervision Organisation (UNTSO). Location: Middle East. 18 Dec 58 to date Irish commitment: 427.**U.N. Observer Group in Lebanon (UNOGIL). 28 Jun 58 to 18 Dec 58 Irish commitment: 50. U.N. Operation in Congo (ONUC). Location: Zaire. 28 Jul 60 to 30 Jun 64 Irish commitment: 6191.***U.N. Good Offices Mission in Afghanistan & Pakistan (UNGOMAP). 25 Apr 88 to 15 Mar 90 Irish commitment: 8.ONUC still seems most likely, but then he may not be Irish army etc* I feel the group does not relate to this, again because I am nearly sure it was strictly an Officer commitment.** U.N. Observer Group In Lebanon, can be ruled out as the guy is not an ex-Irish Army Officer, (Only Officers were with this group).*** Again, all Irish Officer Club. Kevin in Deva
leigh kitchen Posted May 28, 2008 Author Posted May 28, 2008 (edited) Just a thought - I'd discounted these little marks on the top of the UN ribbon as nothing much of interest - but thinking about it, was'nt the original bar for Congo a very short, bronze one, & I know it's high on the ribbon but could these marks have been left bya 2 x wire prong fitting on such a bar? Edited May 28, 2008 by leigh kitchen
Kev in Deva Posted May 28, 2008 Posted May 28, 2008 (edited) Possibly, but, it would sit rather high on the ribbon.My brother, Kieron, in London is the Secretary of the: U.N. Veterans Association:Post one, Felix Grant DSM. UK.Named after the first Irishman to die in the Congo,I will ask him if any of the Congo vets who are members recall anybody with dual service, in the Irish and British Forcesif you would P.M. the name of the recipient.Kevin in Deva. Edited June 4, 2008 by Kev in Deva
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