Warrant Officers

[Nick]

When did the rank structure for Warrant Officers change within the Navy ? Obviously there used to be several Petty Officers ranks which ranged from Boatswains Mate, to Quater Master, Masters Mate and Ships Master. But where these more roles than ranks ?

[Jim Maclean]

Here we go.

The Warrant Officer in the Royal Navy was until his demise in the late 40s a quite unique rank. The rank had absolutely nothing in common with the Army rank of Warrant Officer. He was Admiralty Appointed, and outranked his Army equivalents.

It was derived from Boatswains etc.

On the resumption of the WO rank in the R.N. in 1970 an equivalent rank to the Army WO1 of Fleet Chief was introduced.

How deep do you wish to go? It ain't easy!

[Nick]

Jim

My interest in the Royal Navy are more the traditions and uniforms especially pre 1825 regulations.

The rank structure obviously has changed over the centuries mainly due to the age of sail giving way to a different era of ship in the late 19th Century.

Todays ranks, as you say, seem to more reflect the Army structure of warrant officers with WO2 and WO1 ranks as well as POs and Chiefs.

I wonder what the modern day equivalent rank compared to the old Amiralty Warranted ranks of Ships Masters and Master Mates etc are.

Originally Petty Officer ranks such as Quarter Master and Boatswains Mate etc were not warranted by the admiralty as such and were only good on the ship they served on.

[Jim Maclean]

It all began with standing officers, these were the guys running the ship, When the ship 'paid off', Ratings and (King's or Queen's) Commisioned officers left the ship to await the next war.

The Admiralty Warrented (standing) officers stayed with the ship.

More to come, just give me a couple of days.

I'll try to make a bit more sense then

[Jim Maclean]

Warrant Officers had two classes, those with Wardroom status that lived with the Gun Room Officers and those without that lived on the Orlop deck.

The Wardroom Warrant Officers were the Master, Surgeon, Purser and Chaplain. The Master was an Executive Officer with much seagoing experience, usually starting as a cabin boy. The others were 'civil' officers later joined by the Secretary. All were made Commissioned Officers shortly after Trafalgar. The Master rank continued until around 1850 when the rank was dropped and he became an Exec branch Lieutenant.

The non Wardroom Warrant Officers were the Boatswain, Gunner and Carpenter, living on the Orlop deck with the Midshipmen and cadets. Later the Midshipman Schoolmaster was promoted to Warrant Officer Rank as Naval Instructor and Schoolmaster.

In 1860 Warrant Officers of the Engineering branch were introduced with the advent of steam. This was mainly due to the fact that experienced engineers had to be recruited from outside the service.

Later other Warrant Officers such as Telegraphists were introduced.

The attached photo taken on HMS Glasgow ca 1920 shows a group of Warrant Officers. The gentleman in the front centre wears a narrow stripe with a curl for an Executive Warrant Officer with 10 years seniority, on the right at front is a Civil Warrant Officer with 10 year seniority, narrow stripe no curl. The others are W.O.s with less than 10 years seniority. Chief Warrant Officers wore a half inch stripe as a Sub Lieut. (Chief Boatswain, Chief Gunner etc)

In 1949 the Admiralty Warrants were withdrawn. W.O.s became branch officers wearing a thin stripe. A few years later this was discontinued and they became Special Duties List officers

[Nick]

Cheers Jim for the information.

I thought it was complicated enough back at the turn of the 19th Century but it seems even more complicated up until after WW2.

My grandfather was a RNR officer during WW2 with the rank of "Skipper"

[Jim Maclean]

A confusing subject indeed, yet fascinating.

I think I see the reason for your initial post. An RNR Skipper was I believe a Warrant Officer, the next rank up being Chief Skipper. This was a Chief Warrant Officer, (CWO). This was also known as Commissioned from Warrant Officer (also CWO) and ranked with a Sub Lieut. I am unsure if CWOs also held a King's Commission. This is where most confusion comes in for me.

The easiest understanding is that Warrant and Commissioned Officers were in fact Officers. Chief Petty Officers and the rest were not. The Navy then was very much like the U.S. forces are now regarding W.O.s.

I omitted in the previous post that the cuff buttons for WOs were, I believe done away with in the 1920s. Also the Jack Russell, could he be the Warrant Rat Catcher, maybe the Jossman's assistant?

I'm still trying to fully understand it myself so any info that comes to light I'd like to know.

Edited August 11, 2005 by Jim Maclean

[Nick]

Jim

I have looked at his papers he was promoted to Chief Skipper in 1944. I have a picture of him in uniform which appears to be an officers uniform with the officers cap badge and the cuff lace is a very wavy crossed pattern as opposed to the normal loop and rings or wavy pattern of the RNVR.

In his book he is shown as A/Skipper Lieut for many entries and ended his war service as Acting Skipper Lieuteunant. Confused !!! I am.

[Jim Maclean]

Bit of info from the web on lace distinctions with a bit of imagination they can be transposed to equivalent R.N. ranks.

http://www.royal-naval-reserve.co.uk/service.htm

Luckily now the RNR wear the same as the RN but with an 'R' in the curl. So much easier.

[Guest Rick Research]

Well, I'm thoroughly confused! This seems like a chain of command nightmare, with an inordinately convoluted cluster of positions where everyone would seem hard presseed to figure out who saluted whom first!

Not to further cloud an already murky issue, but do offical published regulations exist which give clear indications of precisely who would have been named to exactly which of these ranks-- for instance, Petty Officers with practical experience of ## years but "insufficient" classroom "knowledge" or.... ?????

The Germans resolved all these points during the Second War, just commissioning their former Petty and Warrant officers to specific "corps" of officers with standard ranks but distinctive insignias. During the First, such Weighty Matters as personal grooming and the table manners of one's wife (I kid thee not) were considered in their then-system of neither fish nor fowl Officer Deputies and Feldwebelleutnants. Idiotic "rules," but rules nonetheless!

THESE British ranks are about as clear as the Byzantine civil service!!!

[Jim Maclean]

Well, I'm thoroughly confused! This seems like a chain of command nightmare, with an inordinately convoluted cluster of positions where everyone would seem hard presseed to figure out who saluted whom first!

Not to further cloud an already murky issue, but do offical published regulations exist which give clear indications of precisely who would have been named to exactly which of these ranks-- for instance, Petty Officers with practical experience of ## years but "insufficient" classroom "knowledge" or.... ?????

The Germans resolved all these points during the Second War, just commissioning their former Petty and Warrant officers to specific "corps" of officers with standard ranks but distinctive insignias. During the First, such Weighty Matters as personal grooming and the table manners of one's wife (I kid thee not) were considered in their then-system of neither fish nor fowl Officer Deputies and Feldwebelleutnants. Idiotic "rules," but rules nonetheless!

THESE British ranks are about as clear as the Byzantine civil service!!!

←

It all sounds so difficult with so many different titles. The problem for us now is to put an actual rank to a title. At the time rank was denoted by the cuff lace, much as today. The trouble is matching the title to the actual rank.

Social class was also very much to the fore in the RN, surprise surprise, the reason that Engine Room senior rates had their own mess stemmed from their social ineptitude.

Just so as not to further confuse issues, all the WOs shown in the photo are the same rank. The ring merely denotes 10 years seniority in the rank. A half inch ring would denote CWO and would be senior to those shown

Look at this Rick, seems easy to me http://byzantium.seashell.net.nz/articlema...=mtp_bureacracy

Edited August 12, 2005 by Jim Maclean

[Guest Rick Research]

Well now we know the Original Origin of the W.O. system!!!!

[Nick]

Jim

Cheers for the link it has made it a bit clearer now. But as you say very hard to determine true rank or status i.e. Warrant Officer or Commissioned Officer from some of the titles.

It seems that the RNR pre WW2 was made up almost entirely from professional seamen. I know my grandfather was called up very quickly after the outbreak of war and he served the entire war on various trawlers in the RNPS.

I understand he was not that fond of the regular navy and did not have a very high opinion of their officers in term of seamanship. Like nearly all those RNPS men he was a hardened professional trawler man Skipper, who made his living from the sea and operated through out the war in very dangerous and extremely tough conditions. When I read the exploits of some of these men I realise that they are the little known element of the Royal Navy, that had an unglamorous and dangerous job which they carried out with professional pride. True heroes and truly hard men, the last of a dying breed.

[Jim Maclean]

I think that the RNR and RNVR did more than their fair share. Unique men doing some unique feats. I doubt we shall ever see their like again.

You're probably right in their being full time professional seamen. There is a page on the National Archives site which lists abbreviations of ranks. It would appear that the naming of RNR and RNVR personnel more closely followed the M.N. rather than the R.N. Ranks such as engineman, motorman, deckhand, trimmer etc.

I hadn't really thought about it much before but I know very little, if anything of the origins, history and structure of the RNR and RNVR. Time to do some searching.

[Nick]

Jim

I think you will find it was made compulsory for certain proffessional seamen to be RNR just prior to WW2. My grandfather was actually confirmed in the rank of RNR Skipper in January 1939 and trained in A/S in May 1939. He was mobilised to full time Naval service in Sept 1939. He had actually received his Skippers Certificate in 1929. In short to be RNR you were already a full time professional seaman in the merchant service or fishing fleet.

A bit different from todays RNR which is actually what the RNVR was then. Volunteers who were part time seamen and had other professions on land. Many officers joining the Navy during WW2 were commissioned under the RNVR for war service as opposed to joining the RN as a career officer. A bit different to the army and yet again adding to the confusion.

[Stephen J F Plowman]

Warrant Officers had two classes, those with Wardroom status that lived with the Gun Room Officers and those without that lived on the Orlop deck.

The Wardroom Warrant Officers were the Master, Surgeon, Purser and Chaplain. The Master was an Executive Officer with much seagoing experience, usually starting as a cabin boy. The others were 'civil' officers later joined by the Secretary. All were made Commissioned Officers shortly after Trafalgar. The Master rank continued until around 1850 when the rank was dropped and he became an Exec branch Lieutenant.

The non Wardroom Warrant Officers were the Boatswain, Gunner and Carpenter, living on the Orlop deck with the Midshipmen and cadets. Later the Midshipman Schoolmaster was promoted to Warrant Officer Rank as Naval Instructor and Schoolmaster.

In 1860 Warrant Officers of the Engineering branch were introduced with the advent of steam. This was mainly due to the fact that experienced engineers had to be recruited from outside the service.

Later other Warrant Officers such as Telegraphists were introduced.

The attached photo taken on HMS Glasgow ca 1920 shows a group of Warrant Officers. The gentleman in the front centre wears a narrow stripe with a curl for an Executive Warrant Officer with 10 years seniority, on the right at front is a Civil Warrant Officer with 10 year seniority, narrow stripe no curl. The others are W.O.s with less than 10 years seniority. Chief Warrant Officers wore a half inch stripe as a Sub Lieut. (Chief Boatswain, Chief Gunner etc)

In 1949 the Admiralty Warrants were withdrawn. W.O.s became branch officers wearing a thin stripe. A few years later this was discontinued and they became Special Duties List officers

I appreciate that I have arrived somewhat late on this particular topic. However, I seem to have a variety of Warrant Officers in my family tree. The earliest being a surgeon and a purser during the Napoleonic Wars. A son of the latter was an Inspector General of Hospitals and Fleets in the 1880s. More recently, my grandfather seems to have followed WO route;

1930 ? Electrical Artificer, RN Barracks, Chatham

1937 ? Acting Warrant Electrician, HMS VERNON

1939 ? Warrant Electrician, HMS CORNWALL & HMS CALEDON

1944 - Commissioned Electrician, HMS VERNON

1944-1946 - Commissioned Electrician & Electrical Lieutenant, HMS HOWE.

1947 ? Lieutenant (L), HMS MARLBOROUGH

1948 ? Lieutenant Commander & Flotilla Electrical Officer, HMS CHEQUERS.

1955 ? Commander, Air Electrical Officer, HMS NUTHATCH

1956 ? Commander, Staff Electrical officer, Flag Officer Ground Training

1957 ? Commander, Deputy Command Electrical Officer, Flag Officer Air (Home)

I presume the three main ?steps? were from Artificer to Warrant Electrician and then Commissioned Electrician?

[Simon F]

Nick, I am not sure if you would have come across this site but here is a very interesting link to the RNPS?

http://www.harry-tates.org.uk/index.htm

[Simon F]

Perhaps these links may cast some more light on the subject?

http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Pers-Warrant%20Rank.htm

http://www.royalnavalmuseum.org/info_sheets_nav_rankings.htm

http://www.godfreydykes.info/THE%20ROYAL%2...0PART%20ONE.htm

Edited January 24, 2009 by Simon F