Dannebrog

[Yankee]

Dear Gentlemen

The firm Ryesgados Mantgalleri has a knight FR VII of Dannebrog with a light blue reverse. Can anybody explain what this means? My only conclusion was the recipient was also a holder of the Elephant which has a light blue sash. To such an important person one would think the badge would be done in gold as they usually were not in silver gilt as this example is done.

Sincerely

Yankee

[Great Dane]

I have discussed this weird cross many times with Morten (the shop owner) and we simply can't explain it.

First of all it's silver gilt where all other (official) crosses from that period are solid gold. And judging from the cross itself, this cross seems to be an official one, not a privately made one.

Secondly, if it was some sort of chemical reaction or a mistake in enameling the cross, then why is the front not affected?

Truly a mystery

I have attached the picture for reference:

/Mike

[Jacky]

Please correct me if I'm wrong,

but weren't silver-gilt danneborgs awarded to foreigners only?

As the native danish got the gold ones, because they were obliged to return the order to the chancelery after their death?

As it's a possible foreign award? Might it still be possible that it's a private one? On the otherside, the mounting is very danish...

Then..... mistake sounds strange too as the orders have to be checked etc on their standard before they were handed out....

It sounds like a good mystery... Now let's search for a mystery hunter to solve this for us.

[Yankee]

Hi Mike

Do you know if the reverse is enamel or paint over the silver gilt? Would a person who received the Elephant could he or she also hold a knight of Dannebrog at the same time? Only say this for the Elephant sash is an identical match to the color of the reverse. In any event nice design Thanks

Sincerely

Brian

[Great Dane]

The blue reverse is enamel too and even replaces what should have been the red border enamel.

And yes, a Knight of the Order of the Elephant could also be a knight of the Order of Dannebrog, but would most certainly be Grand Cross of the order, and not just a knight...

I am convinced it's a privately made piece, even though it is very similar to the official badge. But why it was made this way (and why on the reverse?), I have no idea...

/Mike

[Great Dane]

Please correct me if I'm wrong,

but weren't silver-gilt danneborgs awarded to foreigners only?

As the native danish got the gold ones, because they were obliged to return the order to the chancelery after their death?

Sorry Jacky, I didn't see your post.

The procedure of giving silver gilt badges to foreigners didn't start until 1910-ish. The amount of crosses awarded was rising rapidly and so was the amount of foreigners who didn't return it.

(and don't be mistaken - even if a foreigner is awarded a silver gilt one, he/she is still obliged to return it).

The cross in question is (supossedly) from the Frederik VII period (1848-1863).

As it's a possible foreign award? Might it still be possible that it's a private one? On the otherside, the mounting is very danish...

Then..... mistake sounds strange too as the orders have to be checked etc on their standard before they were handed out....

Yes, I do believe it is privately made. As for the mounting, it could have been refitted many times during its life (it's just a matter of putting the ring on a hook).

/Mike

Edited April 20, 2007 by Great Dane

[Jacky]

Yes, I know foreigners are obliged too to return the order to the chancelery, as is it with the dutch national orders (except the militairy order of william). But foreigners are harder to push to return the order as they are

a) living abroad, thus next of kin may be unknown to the dutch chancellery.

b) why should they, next of kin, return dad's orders? It's a nice memento or even it gets lost in the heritance, it's somewhere in a chest going to aunt Margot in Peru or where else

this makes it hard to get the foreigners to return their orders isn't it?

Kind regards,

Jacky

[Yankee]

Hi Mike

Here is the Dannebrog from Frederik Vlll on a straight ribbon. The badge is not as concaved as the earlier ones, smaller crowns and not that ivory white in color on the arms. Were there any other changes at the turn of the 20th century for the cross?

Sincerely

Brian

[Yankee]

[Yankee]

[Great Dane]

Hi Brian,

Very nice cross indeed and pretty rare

In the lifetime of the Dannebrog Knight crosses there were 3 changes.

First one occured after the death of Frederik VI in 1839 where the reverse was changed so it would contain 'F VI' on the upper cross arm and '1808' was moved to the lower cross arm.

Second one occured in the 1840s when the court jeweler changed to the present one (A. Michelsen) and the third occured - as you mention - in the beginning of the 20th century when the design was slightly changed (most visible on the 'C5' on the front). All the last 3 types are re-cyphered and reissued today.

/Mike

[Yankee]

Hi Brian,

Very nice cross indeed and pretty rare

In the lifetime of the Dannebrog Knight crosses there were 3 changes.

First one occured after the death of Frederik VI in 1839 where the reverse was changed so it would contain 'F VI' on the upper cross arm and '1808' was moved to the lower cross arm.

Second one occured in the 1840s when the court jeweler changed to the present one (A. Michelsen) and the third occured - as you mention - in the beginning of the 20th century when the design was slightly changed (most visible on the 'C5' on the front). All the last 3 types are re-cyphered and reissued today.

/Mike

Hi Mike

Interesting to note in all the years that the Dannebrog has been around new design ( from 1808 ) the crown has not changed. Only once did I see an example of a very different style crown ( book )and that was for Christian Vlll which would be in the 1840's and that was the time you stated for a change in court jewelers. At one time did see a Christian Vll for sale and that crown was all together different, exactly like the ones we are use to seeing. So there must have been two jewelers competing at the same time or one was privately made.

Sincerely

Brian

[Great Dane]

Yes, the change of jeweler occured during the reign of Christian VIII (1839-1848), so both types exist with his cypher.

/Mike

[Yankee]

Yes, the change of jeweler occured during the reign of Christian VIII (1839-1848), so both types exist with his cypher.

/Mike

When a knight of Christian Vlll does come to the market what would one pay in either type of crown design? I've only seen Frederik Vll and later for sale these days. Thanks

[Great Dane]

Of the Christian VIII new type, the few I have seen on the market cost $3500-$5000 for a Knight Cross (I have never seen a Commander badge).

The old type... hmm... hard to say...

I own one of the two known pieces (there could be more of course), so do the math

/Mike

[Yankee]

Of the Christian VIII new type, the few I have seen on the market cost $3500-$5000 for a Knight Cross (I have never seen a Commander badge).

The old type... hmm... hard to say...

I own one of the two known pieces (there could be more of course), so do the math

/Mike

Great find Can you post yours too, not every day we can see an early treasure.

[Great Dane]

Enjoy

Which book do you have on Danish orders, Brian?

/Mike

[Yankee]

Enjoy

Which book do you have on Danish orders, Brian?

/Mike

Hi Mike

What a surprise to see a Christian Vll with the variant crown. A dream to see such a great piece. Made my day Only seen one before in a foto.

Book was by Rolf Christensen