My first ribbon bar with Turkish awards...

[Bob Hunter]

Oddly enough it has taken some time for one of these to come my way. I'm sure the New England Mafia will comment in depth...

[Bob Hunter]

and here are just the Turkish awards.

Edited August 12, 2005 by Bob Hunter

[Bob Hunter]

Initially I was confused by the color of the stripes on the second ribbon thinking it was beige or an off-white but when I flipped the bar over it was clear the first two decorations were striped in green.

[landsknechte]

Great find.

I've been eye-balling those ever since they first appeared on eBay. At the time, I didn't really go after them because there was no way that I could have afforded to win the entire bunch of them (they were all being sold separately). I'm glad that Stogierick was able to rescue the group, and I'm glad to know that they went to a good home.

I only have one ribbon bar with a Turkish decoration, a Wurttemburg bar with the "Iron Halfmoon". That bar device is gorgeous.

--Chris

[Guest Rick Research]

Yeah, green is one of those colors that fades oddly depending on the batch (as in Saxon Albert Order ribbons) and these are simply from two different rolls of ribbons. The outfitter, while interestingly enough went to the trouble of having TWO types of Liakat/Imtiaz "pirate cutlass" sabers bars in stock, has mounted them incorrectly, silver Liakat Medal with sabers "1332" date bar, Medjidie Order X, and War Medal star.

Though ONLY the Liakats and Imtiazes had the "1332" (=1914) date bars-- and those were used for the entire war-- I have never seen an actual WW1 wartime ribbon bar using the complete device. Compare here a Godet made (distinctive mutant ?M3K wreath and trademark gray reverse) wartime ribbon bar (Daniel Krause has another bar from the same unidentified officer with MORE wartime ribbons on it) with a Liakat showing "sabers alone" and a 1930s bar with the true Turkish form sabers sandwiched between an Imtiaz with sabers and a Liakat with sabers, followed by a TWM with "Black Sea" campaign bar and whatr was probably the Turkish Lifesaving Medal.

[attachmentid=7891]

Here is then Major Bensen of the Reichswehrministeium, early 1920s, wearing the "true sabers" (actually, scimitars, to be technical) and the "full date bar sabers," so they had come into use by very soon after the war if not during it:

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A close up of this very nice photo (found by Eric Queen for me ) reveals the two types of device as well as the "Dardanelles" (Gallipoli) TWM bar. Bensen's tricking us here-- his was a THIRD Class Medjidie, normally worn from the neck, and being worn in "Kleindekoration" here on his ribbon bar! Note also the "spectrum shuft" phenomenon which makes his XXV in second place look "light" (dark blue) while his 1897 in 3rd place (yellow) looks "dark."

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[Guest Rick Research]

Here are campaign bars, as often worn at the front on TWM ribbons, but rarely found on German ribbon bars. I believe there were eight in all, but after the Dardanelles as shown in photo above, and these examples below, the only other one I can name was for the Caucasus.

Here with TWO "Suez" bars (on both his silver Liakat X--note faded out green-- and TWM, Generalmajor zV Hugo Kiehl (1884-1944: WW2 chief of POW camps in Norway, but 1916 with the Trans-Suez raiders), then the "Black Sea" bar again (probably to a naval surgeon named Reinhold) and finally a typical

"no one will know the difference" spectacularly screwed up ribbon bar which has the ?M3K wreath transported to his Hindenburg Cross Xs , silver Liakat date bar on a L?beck (yes L?beck) hanseatic Cross ribbon and finally a TWM ribbon with "Palestine" bar in the correct slanted shape of the full size originals.

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And here as a LaPo Oberst in 1935 is Kiehl himself modelling the full size bars (? the outstanding Biblio Verlag biographical series) on his Liakat and a very late affectation of the silly "empty ribbon on medal bar" TWM style:

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[Guest Rick Research]

Here are the two Suez bars over Black sea over Palestine in close up:

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and my only ? 1917/18 wartime Austro-Hungarian ribbon bar (German 15mm sized!!!) with the TWM in last place. Combination suggests a medical doctor von Somebody in a regiment before the war "Chef'd" by the Grand Duke of Baden:

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[Bob Hunter]

Many thanks Rick now I have three more things to find, an Imtiaz Xdate, a Medjidie w/"real" scimitars and a TWM w/campaign bar...the hunt resumes!

Gotta love that "no one will ever notice" bar. Is that a case of being so screwed up it has to be real?

Edited August 12, 2005 by Bob Hunter

[Guest Rick Research]

Ooooooyeah... typical "Ugly" period screw-up. Exotic stuff baffled your average German ribbon bar supplier, whether Turkish, or Finnish, or Rumanian....

Here are three VERY non-regulation ways to wear the TWM ribbon:

1) a mini whose wearer has gone Whole Hog and mini'd his EK2 ond OK2 as well!

2) a crescent on what shall forever be known as the First Manifestation Of Evil Ricky Senility ribbon bar. This little embellishment is usually found with the points up, like the center of the full sized star. Again, completely unauthorized.

3) Hey, this guy is wearing an HHOX without the X... with that freakin' DUMB mini EK2... so why NOT wear 'em on his TWM?

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Even the TURKS wore naughty incorrect devices during the war:

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This is then-1st Lt Ibrahim M?nir, who retired as a Captain in 1936 and died in 1957. Found his photo on eBay in Utah, and returned it to his niece in Turkey. (Who is the Good Ricky????????)

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[Bob Hunter]

Ah, yes! I remember tutu!

Apparently what passes for early onset of senility in New England is regarded as fraud in California which is what we call trying to sell the same item to two different people!!

Very kind gesture with the photo. How tough was it to locate the niece?

[Guest Rick Research]

She found me. I am World Renowned. Members of the Research family have been known for their wise and partially omniscient benificence (and certain other physical characteristics I shan't allude to, here) for almost 9 centuries.

Here's the sort of guy who would have WORN your ribbon bar:

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or maybe this slightly more elevated but still ground-bound former Hapsburg member of the WW2 Luftwaffe:

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[Bob Hunter]

I'm amazed! I would have guessed you to be a much younger man!

I'll bet immortality is a collosal bore!

[Stogieman]

Yes, but unfortunately I have now split the group. Apparently the only person in the world who cared was me and I can't afford to hold groups of ribbon bars forever. I even offered the group at less than I paid... no takers. The rest will appear on eBay soon.

[Bob Hunter]

Continuing with decorations Turkish...What ribbon was used for the Osmanie, same as the Medjidie?

I think I know the answer to this one...Impossible to tell the grade of TO or MO without a medal bar or an award document, correct?

[Guest Rick Research]

Medjidie Order ribbon is the same as the Liakat Medal-- red with a narrow green stripe near each side. Osmanie is green with narrow red.

Here is a "fashion statement" 3rd Class neck badge SIZED Medjidie 5th Class with sabers all but obscuring a Turkish issue "silver" Liakat with German-made sabers bar won in WW1 by then Paymaster-Ensign B?ning. 5th Class Medjidie is silver in the obverse disk center and no rosette on the ribbon, while 4th class was gold in obverse center with a rosette on the ribbon:

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The Osmanie had no 5th Class, so the 4th Class bore the French style rosette-- usually! Sometimes because this Order was SO whompin' HUGE, even the crescent suspension was omitted to "fit" to German scale medal bars. Here's an Austrian made and on Austrian trifold 4th Class Osmanie:

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German and Austrian ribbon bars with Osmanies, bearing no devices at all:

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[attachmentid=8130]

[Guest Rick Research]

And just to be thorough, here is an Imtiaz with slide on sabers bar (massive real silver, all parts hallmarked) side by side with an Austrian made (asterisk wartime base metal markings) nice alloy "silver" Liakat with sabers bar and a Turkish issue recycled tuna fish can metal "silver" Liakat with an original Turkish issue white metal alloy slide-on sabers bar on a Bavarian army jubilee "close enough" replacement ribbon. The WW1-only sabers bars simply bear the date "1332" for 1914, unchanged thereafter.

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[Guest Rick Research]

Here's a weird one, in colors that look more Lithuanian than Turkish--

1897 Kaiser Wilhelm I Centenary Medal and the Turkish Medal for the new young Kaiser Wilhelm II's state visit in 1889!

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[Bob Hunter]

Tip of the ole' tricorn Mr. RR, thanks.

[HeikoGrusdat]

and here ist the medal to your ribbon, of course on a nice bar... does anybody know what stands behind the colours of this ribbon??? really looks like something in the east block....

[HeikoGrusdat]

a bit closer...

[Guest Rick Research]

If you could, I would like a nice clear scan of the front and back of that 1889 (so I will not accidentally buy the "Best Pastry Chef" medal by mistake)...

because I have a very early clip-in medal bar that was clipped out of as whoever this wearer was, added medals:

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Godet tag of circa 1908:

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God knows what these things sell for, but it would be nice to have one, simply clipping it into a bar easy-as-pie and no fiddling to bring it back to wholeness again. (Have yet to find a Red Eagle 4--which is what fits the clip placement--for less than demented price, either ) Since all Turkish medals look basically the same, on the front, it is only the BACK that will bear whatever squiggles show this was the 1889 Visit Medal and not the 4th Grade Prize For Best Penmanship.

Is your 1889 copper?

[HeikoGrusdat]

Rick, sorry that I can`t make better pictures for you, maybe someone has a better camera for me... I think even you will know that you have the right one when you have it - the words on the reverse are in german together with the german eagle... "Zur Erinnerung an den Besuch seiner Majest?t des deutschen Kaisers Wilhelm II bei seiner Majest?t dem Kaiser der Osmanen Abdul Hamid Khan II in Constantinopel 2.November 1889" so, no way to get the "pastry chef medal"... I would say it is copper

Heiko

[HeikoGrusdat]

reverse...

[Bob Hunter]

Heiko, without regard to the meaning of the colors in the ribbon (I would guess the colors are significant to both Germany and Turkey) you have produced yet another magnificent bar. Very nice!

[Guest Rick Research]

Oooooo gooodie!!! Thanks Heiko!!! I had no idea what was on the back, and can't read Arabic squigglies at all, except for numbers! German certainly simplifies things!!!

This is yet another of those medals not listed in Rank Lists, and so few in the Orders Almanac that it is of NO help in identifying groups.