When the 'Paulownia Flowers? became a separate Order in respect of the Rising Sun ?

[lilo]

Hello All,

Consulting the web site of the Government of Japan Cabinet Office at : http://www8.cao.go.jp/english/decoration/touka.html

I discovered that the ?Grand Cordon of the Order of the Paulownia Flowers? - established in 1888 as the highest award in the Orders of the Rising Sun ? presently it serves as a different award.

My question:

I would like to know from when (the exact date please) I must consider the ?Order of the Paulownia Flowers? as a different/separate Order in respect of the Rising Sun.

If isn?t possible to establish the exact date from when the two order became separate, then it is sufficient for me to know if this happened after WW1 or WW2 or only in recent years.

Awaiting to hear from you

Thanks in advance

Best Regards

Lilo

[Ed_Haynes]

Some of the confusion here, I think, is the difficulty that Westerners have in comprehending the whole "Order of Merit" structure that underlay all of the Japanese awards and was more important than the (uniquely) Western concept of distinct "orders" (growing out of the crusader urge).

As I understand it, the Kyokujitsu Doka Daijusho -- or, as usually put into English "Grand Cordon of the Order of the Rising Sun with Pawlonia Flowers", etc. -- was created by Imperial Edict No. 1 of 4 January 1888 as a First Order of Merit Decoration affiliated to the Kyokujitsusho -- the "Order of the Rising Sun". The Rising Sun had been created back in 1875. The Pawlonia was the First Order of Merit award that replaced the Rising Sun in that grade. Yes, this is all very confusing. As I understand it, it was always linked to but separate from the Rising Sun.

Again: Think in terms of Orders of Merit -- horizontally, not vertically ("orders").

Can others more expert that I help out?

By the way, I have consulted Peterson's work on Jpanese awards. When all else fails, and you want information, you need to read carefully researched books (and not Wikipedia or other online sources!).

[Laurence Strong]

I think it changed when the re did the Orders in 2002.

[lilo]

Hi Ed / Laurence,

Thanks both for the answers.

Ed,

I well understood what you mean with : 'horizontally, not vertically'

To try to let you understand what I would like to know, I must make a brief precisation as following :

After WW1 many High Ranking British Officers received the ?Order of the Paulownia Flowers? after having already received other classes of the Rising Sun Order.

I made the above question because I wanted to try to understand if these officers 'Should' wear ONLY the ribbon for the the ?Order of the Paulownia Flowers? (being this an 'up-grade' of the Rising Sun) or both ribbons ('Paulownia Flowers? and 'Rising Sun') ??

I hope to have clarified my interest (if not, please advise me and I'll try to explain better my doubt).

Regards

Lilo

Edited July 22, 2007 by lilo

[Ed_Haynes]

Yes, Lilo, as I understand it (and it is very complex, not knowing Japanese), they'd drop their Rising Sun when they got the Grand Cordon of the Order of the Rising Sun with Pawlonia Flowers. Or at least they should have. What they'd actually do is something else, and, of course, they'd wear NOTHING Japanese after 7 December 1941.

Edited July 22, 2007 by Ed_Haynes

[Paul L Murphy]

It was always considered a seperate order, however you had to already have received the Grand Cordon of the Rising Sun before you could get it. This latter rule was applicable to Japanese recipients only.

If you received both Grand Cordons, Rising Sun and Rising Sun with Pawlonia Flowers, you could wear both.

Regards,

Paul

[Ed_Haynes]

Thanks, Paul. Hoped you'd set us straight.

We need a better reference than Peterson, I guess. (Hint, hint.)

[Paul L Murphy]

Thanks, Paul. Hoped you'd set us straight.

We need a better reference than Peterson, I guess. (Hint, hint.)

I know, it is very tempting. My problem is that I am a prefectionist, which is why it took five years for Steve and I to write the last book since we kept finding new information. While a book on Japanese orders and medals would not take as long it is just a matter of finding the time to do it. I would want to include certificates, cases etc. so it would be a real labour of love.

I am gathering lots of photo images of anything interesting that passes through my hands so one of these days I will be able to launch into it.

[lilo]

It was always considered a seperate order, however you had to already have received the Grand Cordon of the Rising Sun before you could get it. This latter rule was applicable to Japanese recipients only.

If you received both Grand Cordons, Rising Sun and Rising Sun with Pawlonia Flowers, you could wear both.

Regards,

Paul

Hello Paul

would you mean that the British could well have received directly the Grand Cordon of the ''Rising Sun with Pawlonia Flowers'' without having before received the Grand Cordon of the ''Rising Sun'' ???

[Paul L Murphy]

Lilo,

That is correct. A good example is General Sir John French. He recevied the Pawlonia Flowers but never got the Rising Sun.

Regards,

Paul

[lilo]

Thankyou for your very important replay.

French was one of the men I was interested to.

Can you tell me if for the Field Marshals Hebert Kitchner and Douglas Haig and the Admiral Sir J.R. Jellicoe happened the same thing ?

In other words can you better specify - for each of the 3 High ranking officers - who received directly and ONLY the 'Pawlonia Flowers' and who, instead,

received both (the 'Pawlonia Flowers' and the 'Rising Sun') ?

To give an answer to this question means that I concluded a great amount of research !

Awaiting to hear from you

Best Regards

lilo

[Paul L Murphy]

The reason I know about French is because I have his award certificate in my collection so I have researched it a bit, but I do not know about the other three. You could possibly check the London Gazette but they may not be gazetted.

Kitchener was also made a Japanese Marshal, the only non-Japanese person ever to get that award.

[lilo]

Hi Paul

Thanks the same

Best Regards

Lilo