For the Experts ? Pour le m?rite question

[W McSwiggan]

I have found a contradiction between Previtera?s Prussian Blue and Nimmergut?s Deutschland-Katalog 2001/2002 Orden & Ehrenzeichen 1800-1945.

Previtera states that holders of the oak leaves for 50 years were awarded and entitled to wear a crown to commemorate this anniversary. This should come as no surprise as it is consistent with provisions made for the holders of the order without oak leaves.

The issue is that Previtera implies (perhaps I misinterpret his meaning) on page 87 that these devices were to be worn in series ? one above the other and does not suggest which should take precedence. Nimmergut on the other hand illustrates a device with the crown superimposed on the oak leaves.

Can anyone explain this apparent contradiction? Are both correct for this rare combination or is one in error? Can anyone cite a primary source on this?

[Guest Rick Research]

I doubt there were ever enough of these for there to have BEEN any "official" model.

While a PLM could as soon have been awarded to an insanely brave 2nd Lt as to a Field Marshal, OAKLEAVES virtually always went to Generals and full Colonels for continued success in command positions. I may have missed a young General Staff Major oakleaf recipient or such, but generally an Oakleaves winner was going to be either side of 50

making any such person roughly

100 years old to have been eligible for a crown TO the oakleaves.

So not the sort of thing that sat around in stock at the Orders Chancery, I'd have thought.

How many can there have ever been?

[W McSwiggan]

I doubt there were ever enough of these for there to have BEEN any "official" model.

While a PLM could as soon have been awarded to an insanely brave 2nd Lt as to a Field Marshal, OAKLEAVES virtually always went to Generals and full Colonels for continued success in command positions. I may have missed a young General Staff Major oakleaf recipient or such, but generally an Oakleaves winner was going to be either side of 50

making any such person roughly

100 years old to have been eligible for a crown TO the oakleaves.

So not the sort of thing that sat around in stock at the Orders Chancery, I'd have thought.

How many can there have ever been?

Interesting observation but?

What if your young Leutnant continued his career and later received the oak leaves?

Would he not have been eligible for the crown on the anniversary of his original award, perhaps at the age of 70 to 75?

Of course, I am speculating that this was not as rare as a 40ish Major reaching his 90ish birthday following his award (rare as this was for majors). Could turn into a project for me at some point however I remain curious as to the correctness of Nimmergut versus Previtera.

No regulations out there?

[Les]

Interesting observation but?

What if your young Leutnant continued his career and later received the oak leaves?

Would he not have been eligible for the crown on the anniversary of his original award, perhaps at the age of 70 to 75?

Of course, I am speculating that this was not as rare as a 40ish Major reaching his 90ish birthday following his award (rare as this was for majors). Could turn into a project for me at some point however I remain curious as to the correctness of Nimmergut versus Previtera.

No regulations out there?

I haven't seen anything in the pre-1918 regulations, but Osterkamp in the 1960's during the "50th" anniversary of several WWI era awards deprated from the strictest interpretations of the "regulations."

If Nimmergut provides provenance/documentation to his example, I'd be more inclined to accept some measure of documentation over what might be nothing more than a position based on opinion and guesswork when the regulations don't specifically cover the cracks.

Les

[medalnet]

As good or as bad as the Nimmergut may be one has to know that he used a lot of photoshoped pictures in there as much as known fakes and fabrications.

The crown and oak leaf devise has nothing to do with anything sanctioned by the orders chancellery before 1918, but could certainly be something given by the "Ordensgemeinschaft" long after the wars.

[Les]

Andreas, always good to have imput from you, and I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said.

I don't have Nimmergut and can't readily look up the medal in question.

Germans might try to follow the regulations closely, but many of the early pieces awarded to Russians during the Napoleonic era might have been PlM and later the same person being awarded the oaks. Some of those Russians lived a long time and were not necessarily required to follow Prussian regulations. I don't know.

Les

[medalnet]

Les, I absolutely agree, there is nothing that does not exisit when it comes to collecting medals. Decorations have been to often repaired, modified or upgraded by the recipient. If you would see the picture, you would certinaly agree. The Crown device looks more like something from a German Shooting Society's price. Yet, it still be possible that this one is one of those modified after 1945 by the Ordensgemeinschaft.

[W McSwiggan]

Hi all & thanks - very interesting replies by all.

Bottom line appears to be "You'll never know"!

Drat!

Regards,

wem