Need some help for identification please

[matteti]

Hello,

I am not a collector of German items usually, but when it is related to my Soviet collection, I have some interest. So, I picked-up those two items in Ukraine in L'viv (L'vov or Lemberg in German).

I was told they were from the period of the occupation of Ukraine by Germany and they were accompanying Nazi police ID... I would appreciate any information you can have about them because I was not able to find anything on internet.

From the little I understand (or think I understand!) the oval one is for Gestapo (Secret State Police) and the round one for the Secret Field police?

On wikipedia, they say this about the Oberkommando Der Heeres

The Oberkommando des Heeres (OKH) was Germany's Army High Command from 1936 to 1945. In theory the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht (OKW) commanded the OKH. However, the de facto situation after 1941 was that the OKW directly commanded operations on the Western front while the OKH commanded the Russian front.

Here is the Secret field police (obverse)

Diameter is around 45mm, thickness around 3mm

Edited September 15, 2007 by matteti

[matteti]

Here is the Secret field police (reverse)

[matteti]

Here is the Secret State Police (Gestapo) obverse

Measures around 47mm by 35mm, thickness 2mm

[matteti]

Here is the Secret State Police (Gestapo) reverse

[Don Bible]

Hello,

I am not a collector of German items usually, but when it is related to my Soviet collection, I have some interest. So, I picked-up those two items in Ukraine in L'viv (L'vov or Lemberg in German).

I was told they were from the period of the occupation of Ukraine by Germany and they were accompanying Nazi police ID... I would appreciate any information you can have about them because I was not able to find anything on internet.

From the little I understand (or think I understand!) the oval one is for Gestapo (Secret State Police) and the round one for the Secret Field police?

On wikipedia, they say this about the Oberkommando Der Heeres

The Oberkommando des Heeres (OKH) was Germany's Army High Command from 1936 to 1945. In theory the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht (OKW) commanded the OKH. However, the de facto situation after 1941 was that the OKW directly commanded operations on the Western front while the OKH commanded the Russian front.

Here is the Secret field police (obverse)

Diameter is around 45mm, thickness around 3mm

[Don Bible]

This Gestapo disc is a well known fake of a type that has been around for decades. It has no collector's value. The original discs are much different with no number or letter under the eagle.

Examples of original Gestapo discs may be seen on the website http://home.comcast.net/~donbible/

Nothing is for sale...only for reference to collectors.

The disc for the Secret Field Police (GFP) is, in my opinion, also a fake piece, probably produced in 1994....or later. Several examples of it were sold at that time, before it was exposed that the sellers were also selling known counterfeit examples of the Prussian State Criminal Police (Staatl.Preuss.Krim Polizei) warrant disc in both Neusilber and bronze, along with high quality fake Gestapo warrant discs. Collectors lost a lot of money on the 1994 produced fakes, as they often sold for $2000-$2500...or more.

These GFP discs are still found listed now and then on websites and ebay, but few knowledgeable collectors will touch them. In my opinion, they too are worthless.

If you have further questions, I will try to help.

Don Bible

[matteti]

This Gestapo disc is a well known fake of a type that has been around for decades. It has no collector's value. The original discs are much different with no number or letter under the eagle.

Examples of original Gestapo discs may be seen on the website http://home.comcast.net/~donbible/

Nothing is for sale...only for reference to collectors.

The disc for the Secret Field Police (GFP) is, in my opinion, also a fake piece, probably produced in 1994....or later. Several examples of it were sold at that time, before it was exposed that the sellers were also selling known counterfeit examples of the Prussian State Criminal Police (Staatl.Preuss.Krim Polizei) warrant disc in both Neusilber and bronze, along with high quality fake Gestapo warrant discs. Collectors lost a lot of money on the 1994 produced fakes, as they often sold for $2000-$2500...or more.

These GFP discs are still found listed now and then on websites and ebay, but few knowledgeable collectors will touch them. In my opinion, they too are worthless.

If you have further questions, I will try to help.

Don Bible

Thanks for the info Don.

As we can see from your website, you seem to like those discs a lot!

It would make sense that they are fake produced in Poland... L'viv is close to Poland and was even part of Poland before 1939 Soviet invasion of what is now Western Ukraine. I had no idea of what the value of real such item could be there so for 8$ each I decided to buy them.

By any chance, could you post photo of those original discs you have showing the edge (the side). Because it seems mines are weird... the edge surface is not fully flat and they have a kind of "spine" in the middle of the edge going all around the disc, almost like if the discs were made of two one-sided disc stuck together...

[Don Bible]

Thanks for the info Don.

As we can see from your website, you seem to like those discs a lot!

It would make sense that they are fake produced in Poland... L'viv is close to Poland and was even part of Poland before 1939 Soviet invasion of what is now Western Ukraine. I had no idea of what the value of real such item could be there so for 8$ each I decided to buy them.

By any chance, could you post photo of those original discs you have showing the edge (the side). Because it seems mines are weird... the edge surface is not fully flat and they have a kind of "spine" in the middle of the edge going all around the disc, almost like if the discs were made of two one-sided disc stuck together...

matteti, the warrant discs are about my only Third Reich era collecting interest. It is an interesting niche of the hobby, but one filled with "minefields."

At the price of $8 each you certainly are not hurt by the purchase. If real, one is talking in the thousands of dollars for discs such as these.

I keep my discs in a bank vault and do not have one handy to scan, but the edge should be perfectly flat just like a coin. The original discs are die struck.

What you describe sounds like a casting in a two piece mold.

[matteti]

matteti, the warrant discs are about my only Third Reich era collecting interest. It is an interesting niche of the hobby, but one filled with "minefields."

At the price of $8 each you certainly are not hurt by the purchase. If real, one is talking in the thousands of dollars for discs such as these.

I keep my discs in a bank vault and do not have one handy to scan, but the edge should be perfectly flat just like a coin. The original discs are die struck.

What you describe sounds like a casting in a two piece mold.

I am happy I didn't know the price of a real one because I would probably have accepted to pay much more than what I paid. At that price, I am not hurt, because I also bought many soviet badges, a bust, banners, coins which I know are genuine and overall, my shopping while in Ukraine was very good.

I've only bought one other German item before those fake discs and it was a winter war (East) medal from a well-known members of the forum here.

As you say, my discs are probably casting from two-piece mold. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.