EK 1939 Ritterkreuz ribbon

[PKeating]

I'd heard and read of 40mm RK ribbon but had never seen any until this 50.5 cm piece came my way.

Paddy Keating

[Hairoil]

Looks good, and nice. Difficult area this as the later 1957 crosses came with 40mm ribbons. I saw a cased mint unissued 'Lazy 2' Junckers cross with a 40mm ribbon, which was period.

Edited September 23, 2007 by Hairoil

[PKeating]

Thanks for the reply. Interesting about the Lazy 2 Juncker RK with the 40mm ribbon. This length of ribbon conforms to what I would expect of period ribbon, which is to say of manufacture pre-dating the end of the Third Reich, but ribbon made in the late 1950s would be very hard to identify when compared to 1940s stock. That said, this ribbon, although the picture hardly shows it, has that subtle orange tint to the red stripe seen on some wartime EK2 ribbon and, indeed, RK ribbon. It's not as orange-tinted as some I have seen but the orange "undertone" is there.

PK

[Wussy]

Hallo,

the Ritterkreuz-Band is not one that was made before the war end. It is a 1957 version. The original full lenght ribbon was 72 cm long and not so short as this one (Gordon Willimason, page 276). Only early ribbons were "orange" not late ones and no post war like this. No Juncker Lazy 2 with 40 mm! No real ones fo sure.

Sorry, you found a regular post-war ribbon.

Wussy

[Guest Darrell]

Hallo,

the Ritterkreuz-Band is not one that was made before the war end. It is a 1957 version. The original full lenght ribbon was 72 cm long and not so short as this one (Gordon Willimason, page 276). Only early ribbons were "orange" not late ones and no post war like this. No Juncker Lazy 2 with 40 mm! No real ones fo sure.

Sorry, you found a regular post-war ribbon.

Wussy

Gee ... wonder who this could be

[PKeating]

I've read Gordon's books. The average length of ribbons supplied with the RK was indeed 72cm or thereabouts. However, many ribbons have been shortened or cut from rolls afterwards. You say "Only early ribbons were "orange" not late ones and no post war like this". I wrote "this ribbon, although the picture hardly shows it, has that subtle orange tint to the red stripe seen on some wartime EK2 ribbon and, indeed, RK ribbon. It's not as orange-tinted as some I have seen but the orange "undertone" is there." The photograph doesn't show it clearly. My question was more about the width: 40mm. Some say that this 40mm ribbon was produced from 1939 to 1945 but never used. You say with total conviction that this is 1957 ribbon. That's fine but what are your sources for this information?

PK

[Wussy]

I've read Gordon's books. The average length of ribbons supplied with the RK was indeed 72cm or thereabouts. However, many ribbons have been shortened or cut from rolls afterwards. You say "Only early ribbons were "orange" not late ones and no post war like this". I wrote "this ribbon, although the picture hardly shows it, has that subtle orange tint to the red stripe seen on some wartime EK2 ribbon and, indeed, RK ribbon. It's not as orange-tinted as some I have seen but the orange "undertone" is there." The photograph doesn't show it clearly. My question was more about the width: 40mm. Some say that this 40mm ribbon was produced from 1939 to 1945 but never used. You say with total conviction that this is 1957 ribbon. That's fine but what are your sources for this information?

PK

I took the comment about "orange" as a referral to the early ribbons made of Baumwolle with a heavy weight. Now it seems it was just a whatever comment. Why the comparison to the wartime EK2?

This ribbon here is a 57 ribbon, not made of Baumwolle but rather the typical light stuff and weave of post war ribbons.

The saw cut end is another hint. No good ribbon came your way. To detect this type of ribbon you don't need sources - just common sense and some comparison to the good ribbons.

Wussy

[PKeating]

Thanks. However, this is not a debate about the originality or otherwise of this particular riband. Whether this piece of RK riband is wartime or not is actually irrelevant to the question. I simply wanted to know if it were true that EK/RK 1939 riband was made in the 40mm width during WW2.

Regarding "orange" tints, I have seen Winterschlact 1941/42 riband on medals said to have been reproduced in the 1960s in Austria, probably by Rudolf Souval. I have never seen this "orange" tint in known original Russian Front ribands on medal bars, tunics, riband bars or loose, original medals. However, I have seen orange-tinted central stripes on 1939 EK2 ribands accepted as wartime.

This riband was in a box of bits and pieces which also contained an early Souval RK. It could be of 1960s manufacture. However, a number of people who have experience and common sense and who have seen and handled it have wondered if it might be leftover wartime stock. You do not agree. That's fine. Ribands are not a subject I have studied very closely, being more familiar with the crosses themselves, but this has more in common with wartime riband than modern reproduction riband.

I wouldn't say that the "sawcut" was a definitive way of dating riband. I have seen plenty of original ribands for various awards cut from rolls with this kind of tailor's sissors. The ribands themselves were period stock. I do not, however, recall ever observing it with original, unused RK riband folded in presentation cases. Nor is the shortness of a piece of RK riband a reliable indicator, if the riband has clearly been fitted to a cross at some point.

My question was simply aimed at establishing whether or not 1939 Iron Cross riband was ever made during the war in the 40mm size. That is all.

PK

[Hairoil]

All early 1957 crosses that I have owned, and handled, had ribbons in the 46-47mm width range, ie a fraction wider than the wartime examples of 45mm width. (many of the crosses were cased and some were attributed) The ribbons had indeed a lighter feel to them, some did not glow under UV light. The much later 1957 crosses came with 40mm ribbons, but these were very synthetic to the touch -not at all the same feel as wartime ribbon - and glow under UV light. I have seen 40mm heavy cotton ribbon which is undoubtedly of the same construction and feel as the 45mm wartime type.

[Guest Rick Research]

40mm was also the standard trifold width used on Austro-Hungarian, Austrian, and Hungarian "medal bar grade" awards' ribbons.

While this piece has the crinkled wear of a neck loop, there would have been stock of this width that was made at the time for traditionalist post-1938 "Ostmarkers" or Horthy regime Hungarians with 1939 EK2s-- so no reason to think this could NOT be period ribbon simply based on the width.

[PKeating]

Aha! In my opinion, this riband feels "old" and "period". Very interesting information, Rick. Thank you. The riband came with an early Souval fake Knight's Cross. As Souval is a Viennese firm, it would seem logical that this was indeed intended for old-style medal bars worn by Austrians and Hungarians harkening back to Hapsburg times.

PK