Political Medal Bar

[Gordon Craig]

Gentlemen,

I was in Londaon this past weekend and visited a store with some interesting medal bars. There was one that interested me in particular and I have pictured it below. I have been loking for some time for a medal bar that would be correct to display with an NSDAP tunic with an armband for a Leiter Eines Amtes (Leader of a Department). To me, the bar shown below would be a plausible one for my uniform. Since uniforms, and not medals are my field, I'd appreciate any comments on that, pro or con. Also, any comments on price for a bar like this would also be appreciated. I englected to take a picture of the back of the bar. The ribbons are held in place by white thread and there is no felt backing to the ribbon section.

Regards,

Gordon

[Ulsterman]

two comments-

1. I thought the state 25 year medal came before NASDAP awards and

2. the KVKx means this chap either did something brave in an air raid OR he was in Wehrmacht/Luft/KM uniform (80%+). people did switch back and forth-but it was infrequent.

[Gordon Craig]

Jeff,

Thanks for your comments. I beleive you are correct about the order of precedence but it wasn't always followed and I'd like to hear what others have to say. It is not unusual to find a KVK on a bar with NSDAP Long Service awards. Lots of NSDAP members served in the armed forces in 39 and/or early 40. Good for the career.

Regards,

Gordon

[Ulsterman]

Yup-and I'll show a few pictures later to give proof-

The bar however has some interesting facets.

First, there is no army LS medal....of any sort. We know the Bavarians gave these even to war volunteers with double time for war service (Adolf got his Bavarian 9 year medal in the Spring of 1918 and he did not go "regular army" until 1919).

First, the KVKx was instituted in 1939 and awarded in larger numbers beginning in early 1940.

The state LS medal I believe was put in abeyance in mid 1940 (Rick-do I have the dates right-or is in 1942?).

The NASDAP awards were usually made on April 20th, with the paperwork in @ 6 months beforehand (or thereabouts). Your guy with double time for the "kampfzeit" would have been in the party early-no later than @ 1930 I reckon...and maybe earlier as the 25 years awards weren't made until much later during the war. (Note that Himmler's bar @ 1941 in pictures only has the 2 medals on it). NASDAP LS awards I think were also suspended during the war, again I think in 1943 or thereabouts (Rick?)

So what's the story of the bar, especially given the Bav MVK2x (a medal awarded by rank)?

We can certainly place the bar's manufacture between the halcyon victory Summer of 1940 and the end of 1944....but probably 1940-1942ish.

Oh and I think the bar makes sense, for a Bavarian war volunteer middle-class, state employed professional (like a teacher) from Bavaria-EXACTLY the sort of person who joined the NASDAP in the late 1920s and early 1930s (despite the sometimes harsh persecution of NASDAP members by civil authorities pre-1933).

[Guest Rick Research]

Since these are CLIP FRONT, anything could have been removed and anything used to replace them.

I have never seen a medal or ribbon bar with the NSDAP 15 after the 10 that I would be happy with.

The Bavarian MVK2X is not an issue here, since reserve officer candidates got that with less than 2 years service before being commissioned.

What IS an issue, after the reversal of the NSDAPs

is the FORTY year civil service cross at the end.

Last awarded in January 1943, that indicates someone with civil/military service combined from a start date no later than 1902....

now THAT puts the Bavarian MVK2X at odds with no Reserve/Landwehr long service medal...

and means a KVK2X to someone well into his 60s.

For exactly such a type, see

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?automodule=gal...=si&img=398

and the following closeup scan/text following that.

Without a scan of the reverse, I can offer no further input on what is wrong with this bar. But no cloth backing is STRONGLY suggestive that the whole thing has been taken apart, recombined, and cannibalized for a Frankenstein parts bar. A black light will probably reveal the tell tale electric blue of new white ribbons.

But from the front, I wouldn't buy it.

[Ulsterman]

Was the Bav MVK2x awarded to officer candidates as well as senior NCOs ?(By the way, for the verbiage quibblers- "senior NCO" for me is ABOVE a Corporal).

Oops- i meant 40 year LS.

Edited October 9, 2007 by Ulsterman

[Guest Rick Research]

Yes. Whether a 20 year old F?hnrich or a 20s-something wartime reserve officer candidate as Vizefeldwebel/Vizewachtmeister.

Remember: only REGULARS got doubled wartime service years long services. Reservists did NOT.

The Bavarian and final long service award could have been anything, swapped off by what are on there now. But the transposed Nazi Party awards and NO cloth backing on a 1940s medal bar suggest at the very least Little Monkey Fingers.

[Ulsterman]

Ah-thanks. The ribbon bar article actually answered all-really an amazing piece of scholarship there.

[Andwwils]

In my experience, court-mounted 15 year NSDAP long-service medals usually have some-sort of enamel damage to them after 62+ years of being on a bar.

[Guest Rick Research]

An "Old Fighter" uniformed Party functionary with civil service double credit, from David S

No way to tell if the 2nd ribbon is the Military Merit Cross 2nd Class X or MM Order 4th X--

but note that this wearer had the 1938-43 25 years civil service cross with his pair of NSDAPs (15 correctly ahead of 10).

Following usual practice, this was counting WW1 wartime military service as normal calendar years with whatever the supposed civil service was. I say "supposed" because Nazis often cheated and got retroactive credit for years that "should have been" but were not--

like last SA Stabschef Schepmann, fired from his job as a teacher in the 1920s, but given a 25 Treudienst "concurrent" with his NSDAP awards for SA career service. That basically "fiddled" time from the outbreak of war 1914 into the Third Reich to arrive at a "supposed" 25 years of continuous (nudge nudge wink wink) service.

But a 40 years civil service cross would have had to count real service for more than a dozen years before the First War--

and I can't imagine any real public employee with that kind of seniority also serving as a full time Nazi Party official before 1933.

The medal bar's mounting and combination just don't make sense.

[Ulsterman]

The only way i can figure it is a Ortsleiter type who was a teacher. Does his one year volunteer in 1899-1900, born @ 1880, high Gymnasium marks followed by the two year degree and teaches until drafted in late 1916,is a Fahnrich due to educational status/assignment, then joins the party in @ 1930 and is part time functionary thereafter. Even thats a stretch as he'd go back in the Wehrmacht to get that KVKx at age @ 62 (as you said). However, there were a few who did that-notably linguists and scientist types. Still, it's a Loooooog stretch to get that bio.

[Gordon Craig]

Thanks for the comments gents. I was not satisfied with the bar myself but I thought it was worthwhile posting for the comments. Learned a lot as usual. Thanks again.

Regards,

Gordon