Kriegsmarine "Deumer" U-Boat Badge

[Gordon Williamson]

New member Dan Ristic sent me these images of a U-Boat Badge he has. My first instincts were that it too closely resembled the well known Cave Creek special. However, the Cave Creek jobs were a tad smaller than the real pieces and Dan tells me that the dimensions of this one match excatly the correct dimensions for the wartime badge. Cave Creeks also usually have the deck gun area solid, whereas Dan's has the area under the gun cut away.

Another point has just occured in that the image posted in the other thread showing the Deumer badge shows a badge with the area around the eagles neck cleared away, just like Dan's badge. This begs the question, that if Dan's badge is not a Cave Creek job, is it in fact a Deumer. And if it, with the matching head/neck features, is Deumer, that it still leaves the "Hymenn" type recently thought to be Deumer as unidentified.

Can anyone else post obverse / reverse images of Cave Creek pieces and their dimensions/weights for comparison.

[Gordon Williamson]

I've been having a look at some "Cave Creek" copies and there are several common factors with them that are different to Dan's badge.

In particular the areas circled.

1/ Eagles peak is longer

2/ Very sharply angled edge where the eagles claw meets the swastika

3/ Deck gun. Even aside from the obvious difference of the cut out gun, the whole thing is very sharply cut rather than the shapeless lump of the Cave Creeks.

4/Forward part of the keel, very sharply angled and cleanly cut.

5/ Stern end of the keel, sharply cut and shorter length than the Cave Creeks.

Difficult to say if Dans badge is genuine, but it definitely doesn't match the characteristics of the Cave Creek copies and is of a quality as good as the wartime pieces.

Copy photos from Detlev Niemann

[Gordon Williamson]

I'd say the arms of the swastika on the fakes are thinner also.

[Dan Ristic]

I'd say the arms of the swastika on the fakes are thinner also.

Gordon:

I have identified medal compositon: 58.7 % Copper,34.9% zinc, 4.81 % Tungsten, 0.67 % Selenium.

I also have better quality photos if needed.

Dan

[Gordon Williamson]

Dan,

I have compared your better quality photos with several images of "Cave Creek" pieces and it seems to me that there are sufficient small differences that I really don't think yours is one of these copies. Of course the close similarity to the Cave Creek copies means that many folk would shy away from the one you have. Difficult to be 100% certain without seeing something in the flesh, but personally, I like it, and if I had seen it for sale at a show I would have taken the risk and bought it.

Looks from your latest photos that the weakness of detail on the obverse is down to heavy wear rather than being a poorly made badge.

[Dan Ristic]

Dan,

I have compared your better quality photos with several images of "Cave Creek" pieces and it seems to me that there are sufficient small differences that I really don't think yours is one of these copies. Of course the close similarity to the Cave Creek copies means that many folk would shy away from the one you have. Difficult to be 100% certain without seeing something in the flesh, but personally, I like it, and if I had seen it for sale at a show I would have taken the risk and bought it.

Looks from your latest photos that the weakness of detail on the obverse is down to heavy wear rather than being a poorly made badge.

Hello Gordon

Thanks for your reply -I trust your judgement and comments - as your input is the only input that Iam relying on. But the question still remains - who made it ? Could this be a private made item -perhaps jeweler made ? Would you like me to send the medal to you ?

Regards

Dan