Turkey Medjidj?h with Swords

[Veteran]

Hello

I am would like to known what period the Medjidj?h was awarded with Swords. It seems established that recipients of the Order among the Allies (British, French, Sardinians) received the "ordinary" badges during the Crimean War.

Also of interest, would be the category of recipients who would receive the Order with Swords after it had been created. Were all Military personnel awarded this type for any form of services (military division) or was it restricted to acts of gallantry ?

Since they do not appear very often, am I right to assume that the Order with the Swords was only created during WW 1 ? I don't seem to be able to locate much litterature on this particular subject.

Thank you all for your contribution and answers

Best regards

Veteran

[Ed_Haynes]

These are incredibly rare, issued only after the Empire joined (BAD IDEA) the Central Powers in the Great War; these were NOT issued during the war in the Crimea or in indigenous conflicts. Someplace, I have (aproximate) numbers . . . .

Edited February 26, 2008 by Ed_Haynes

[Guest Rick Research]

Sabers were added in 1915. No Ottoman award numbers have come out of the higgle piggle of their never sorted archives, but they are incredibly rare.

Marine Zahlmeister August B?ning (1891-1961, later the ONLY Konteradmiral (V) in the German navy) got his as the super star combat paymaster of the Tigris-Euphrates "canoe" fleet:

This is actually a "fashion super-sized" Vth Class.

[Veteran]

Sabers were added in 1915. No Ottoman award numbers have come out of the higgle piggle of their never sorted archives, but they are incredibly rare.

Marine Zahlmeister August B?ning (1891-1961, later the ONLY Konteradmiral (V) in the German navy) got his as the super star combat paymaster of the Tigris-Euphrates "canoe" fleet:

This is actually a "fashion super-sized" Vth Class.

Thank you both very much for your kick r?plies. I am most grateful.

This rather indifferent picture (my apologies) shows what is to me a strange assortment : a neck badge and what looks very much like a first class star. The outstanding Morton & Eden sale of the American Numismatic Society collection held in London in October 2006 had a Second Class star (n?520)which was quite different - smaller and the seven points oriented differently. This one, with the swords, is identical to the First class star (518) also illustrated in that catalogue in the ordinary "civilian" class, very thick "3 layers".

The set shown is in its original turkish presentation case and has not been dabbled with. Also noticeable, the plain red ribbon, different from the usual red lined with green normal ribbon for the Order (would it be right ?).

The questions here are :

- is this a First Class set, a Second Class or an intermediate Class ?

- Were these awards for combat services only, or were they given in this form as a military class to all officers in the Forces ?

- As Rick has shown, these Turkish awards went to a number of German recipients. Were the "swords" specially devised to be given to the Germans and Austrian allies ?

Ed, of course, wets my appetite with his mention of numbers of awards. I sincerely hope he will be able to lay hands on the right file.

Thank you all for your help in making sense of this set.

Best regards

Veteran

[Josef Rietveld]

Congrats Veteran, beautifull set

Normally the breast stars for the second class (Grandofficer) had a diameter of 75 or 85 mm. As far as i know the stars for the GC (1st class) had a diameter of 90, 95 and some even 100 mm. I add a picture of my GC-Star wit Sabers (100 mm).

I know a GC-star dating from arround 1860 who had 110 mm diameter !!!

The star you are showing looks like an GC-Star. There is also a difference in design beetween GC and GO-Stars.

As written before the sabers (for medjidie and osmanie) were added in 1915. I have NO evidence, at least no evidence based on original turkish sources, what where the modalities of awarding sabers.

haynau

[Veteran]

Wonderful picture of your star !!

Mine looks very much the same, but the size is smaller (85mm) and tremendeously thick (20mm !) with the crescents and stars an intermediate layer of sliver, between the star itself and the silver-gold-enamel piece carrying the swords.

Additionnal information is that the presentation case, from the Turkish Mint I believe, carries the numeral "2" which points to a 2nd class set. In which case, one would think that the star could have been either shaped like a 1st class (with 7th point looking down as on both your star and this one) or with the 7th point looking upwards as is the case with the ANS specimen.

Thank you for the additionnal information you offer. In fact, this set is the right size, the only oddity being the shape of the star, as compared with the one in the ANS Collection.

It does seem strange that more litterature is not available on the subject. After all, a large number of German (and Austrian ?) officers were seconded to the Turkish Army and Navy, therefore earning Turkish awards for their services.

Thank you very much. I will be delighted to hear more from those on the forum who will kindly share their thoughts about this set.

Best regards

Veteran

[paul wood]

Dear Paul,

If you look at ANS 2 there was a Turkish section which had a virtualy complete group of the Osmanie and Medjidie with scimitars. My suspicion is that the Ottoman Empire adopted such devices more for the benefit of Central Power allies than for their own troops. Certainly they are rare in all cases and extreme caution should be used by anyone thinking of purchasing examples as they have been (the scimitars) extensively faked (not suprising when you can multiply the value of a 5th Class badge by many times).

Paul

[Veteran]

Dear Paul,

If you look at ANS 2 there was a Turkish section which had a virtualy complete group of the Osmanie and Medjidie with scimitars. My suspicion is that the Ottoman Empire adopted such devices more for the benefit of Central Power allies than for their own troops. Certainly they are rare in all cases and extreme caution should be used by anyone thinking of purchasing examples as they have been (the scimitars) extensively faked (not suprising when you can multiply the value of a 5th Class badge by many times).

Paul

Dear Paul

Thank you for your constructive comment. THE ANS 2 catalogue is (as you may have seen) my absolute bible for these awards, since it is the most recent source published, with prices realized and outstanding pictures. When I mentioned n?520 in my previous messages, I had missed n?515 which is absolutely identical to the star in my set - but noticebly larger, .

As you say, a number of fakes seem to have been around; this set is in its original Mint presentation case. It "looks right".

Best regards

Paul

Edited February 28, 2008 by Veteran

[Ed_Haynes]

Part of the problem may be that while there are official badges, German jewelers also tried their diverse hands at manufacturing these awards between the wars (when the issuing authority no longer existed). It is hard enough to discern consistency in official badges, but to expect any such standards in independently manufactured badges may just be too much.

Someday, when someone looks at the Ottoman records, some of our questions may be answered. They are in pretty good condition and order, it is just that no one has bothered. Maybe when that is done, we'll be able to appreciate Ottoman awards in their proper context and not merely as some exotic adjunct to German ODM.

There are, of course, a couple of nice books on Ottoman awards, in Turkish of course, but the authors have not dug too deeply into the archives. Reading Ottoman Turkish is a special skill.

[Guest Rick Research]

It would be difficult to ACCURATELY fake sabers awards by adding false "blades" to far more common pre-war Orders, at least in the lower classes, since the only ones I have seen--like B?ning's--are in an odd "recycled tuna fish can" never tarnishing gray alloy that is NOT the hallmarked silver of pre-war Orders. These were presumably actual wartime Turkish-made pieces, since they match in composition and "quality" the execrable Liakat Medals issued during the war.

"?bergrosse" Medjidie with Sabers sizes also seem to have been at the vanity of the buyer rather than according to regulations-- or perhaps a compensation for the inferior metal?

I've never handled an Osmanie with Sabers to see if the same degraded alloy was used for those wartime awards.

I have also never encountered a German-made Medjidie with Sabers-- possibly because there are so few of them out there to begin with.

[Veteran]

Rick

Your fine comments are most interesting. Close inspection of both badge and star in this set shows the Mint hallmark on the reverse, and the quality of the metal is comparable to stars of earlier manufacture. Obviously, they are properly made local productions.

A friend who reads arab script confirms that the lid of the presentation case carries the caption "Medjidjie 2". Which confirms the status of a Second Class award.

The question about the plain red neck-ribbon remains un-answered. I wonder if anyone has an idea about it. It certainly looks period 55mm wide.

I am amazed and most grateful to find on this forum such expert advice about this difficult subject. And I remain hopeful that further information will possibly turn up. I am certainly open...

Regards

Edited February 28, 2008 by Veteran

[Josef Rietveld]

@Veteran

I own two cased Medjidie GO-Sets. One is the standard type (case in red velvet), the other ones caes is of dark-brown leather as the case you showed here.

The stars measure 75 and 85 mm, the larger one looks like your star with sabers.

There are some differences between the two sets appart the shape and the dimension of the star.

The large star has ONLY the imperial mintmark on the reverse.

The standard-star (75mm) shows ALL usual marks: tremolier-line (zigzagline), shahmark (looks like an E stands for purity) punched avers and reverse (see pictures)

there is also difference between the neckdeckorations. I took Photos of the two commanders and the 1st Class badge with Sabers (in fact a commanders cross aswell). Two of the crosses show a rare variant backise I use to lionspaw for the special shape of the crosses arms.

IMHO the enamelquality of this the pieces without shahmark is better than the standard-pieces.

If there is any reason for the differences (foreign production, special production in the mint, special manufacturer) i don't know.

haynau

Edited February 28, 2008 by haynau

[Josef Rietveld]

details

[Josef Rietveld]

detailsII

[Josef Rietveld]

detailsIII

[Veteran]

Thank you for these illustrations. The neck badge I have is identical to the middle one (with swords) you show. And the star looks very much like the larger of the two, plus swords, of course.

It does seem now established that the set is a genuine post-1915 Turkish Mint manufacture. I just have to understand the ribbon.

Best regards

Veteran

[Veteran]

Thank you for these illustrations. The neck badge I have is identical to the middle one (with swords) you show. And the star looks very much like the larger of the two, plus swords, of course.

It does seem now established that the set is a genuine post-1915 Turkish Mint manufacture. I just have to understand the ribbon.

Best regards

Veteran