Heer Help Identifying Gruppenfuehrer

[MJC]

Hi Gents,

Any thoughts on this man? Hermann Historica is selling a Zivilabzeichen attributed to him along with this image.

Thanks in advance!

HH has him listed as a Gruppenfuehrer. Isn't he a Brigadefuehrer?

Edited March 6, 2008 by Michael Constandy

[Guest Rick Research]

Don't THEY identify him?

Well, this is the sort of thing that as a Sale In Progress should not be discussed to the financial gain of disinterested outsiders.

I know him from the LDH4bX roll--to be published later this year.

Funny, since by 1936 he was OUT, and yes, Gruppenf?hrer as final rank.

Survived the R?hm Purge but forced out in 1935 for

"gay interest" as they say on eBay.

[MJC]

Rick,

That explains the haircut. HH doesn't name him, perhaps they don't know, although their listing implies they do since they had his final rank, and not the rank in the image.

Lots of nice goodies in the auction, by the way.

Another debt of thanks, redeemable in beer, wine, and now Sangria,

Mike

[Guest Rick Research]

Hmmmm. What a novel sales concept... NOT identifying their merchandise.

I don't know about such things. Is the actual SS membership number supposed to be on the back of the pin? Do they list that, or is THAT their retail strategy secret as well? I'd have assumed he would have had to return it, given the cloud under which he was ejected from the SS and Party. Lucky not to have gone to a concentration camp! Too embarassing to Himmler after the slaughter of the SA High Command, perhaps.

[RaymondG]

Hi Rick

The number on the back of the pin is just an issue number and nothing to do with the SS number.

The problem with this 'group' is that they can very easily be put together and so I would advise caution to anyone looking at it. If you buy it with the thought that they are not linked and are just put together then you will be fine. I have a database of SS pin numbers, but sadly this number is not in it , which is somewhat irritating.

It is fascinating that you have identified the man from the photograph and I tip my hat to you for your excellent work.

Raymond

[David Gregory]

By 1936, I would expect to see him wearing a Frontk?mpferkreuz on his medal bar. The photo was probably taken a while before the dedication was written.

[Guest Rick Research]

Thanks for the info on the civil pins--new to me. Having been thrown out of the Party and SS, I cannot imagione that he would have been allowed to retain one, since unless I am mistaken these were SS property and thus would have been taken back.

Our ahem Pretty In Black pal here was only a Brigadef?hrer from July to September in 1933-- hence no Hindenburg CRoss yet.

And the dedication is unnamed-- for obvious reasons--under the circumstances.

[RaymondG]

Hi

Well, the pin did remain the property of the SS (eventhough the chap had paid for it) and if you left, or were killed, then you had to return the item. I am still not sure how vigorously this was enforced, but I have seen documentation regarding requests for pins to be returned.

I can imagine in this gentlemans circumstances they would have wanted the pin back pronto.

Raymond

Edited March 7, 2008 by RaymondG

[MJC]

I pulled his personnel file yesterday and the number on the pin does not match the Zivilabzeichen number in his file. Perhaps he wasn't named in the advert because it would be too easy to disprove the link between the photo and the pin.

Edited March 8, 2008 by Michael Constandy

[RaymondG]

I pulled his personnel file yesterday and the number on the pin does not match the Zivilabzeichen number in his file. Perhaps he wasn't named in the advert because it would be too easy to disprove the link between the photo and the pin.

It is as I suspected. It is the easiest thing in the world to stick a picture with a pin and call it a group.

Raymond

[Guest Rick Research]

Not bad for "non-professional" non-auctioneers.

[vestae]

Nice photography, can you tell me more bout that item ?

thanks

Sebastien.

[Guest Rick Research]

AFTER it has sold. We do not want to GIVE free information to sellers and buyers whose business it SHOULD be to do their own homework before selling an item.

Both the consignor and the auction house have already failed to do enough homework to establish that the pin has nothing to do with the photo.