Can anyone identify the unit?

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello Everyone,

This weekend I picked up a number of items including this photo of a soldier and his family. Is it possible to identify his unit? It is a cabinet photo not a postcard which propaply explains the lack of any writing on the reverse of the photo.

My scanner will not allow me to do anything except scan and print so I have to rely on photography so I hope the detail is sufficient for identification purposes.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Cheers

Brian

[Brian Wolfe]

Here is a closer photo of the collar tabs and helmet.

Brian

[Brian Wolfe]

I've tried to get as closer photo but it is probably too out of focus to help much but here it is anyway.

Thanks again for any help you can give me.

Cheers

Brian

[Chip]

Brian,

Well, he is an NCO from the Garde Korps. I think the squared off front visor on his helmet with narrow it down a bit more. Perhaps the 1.Garde Dragoner Regiment. The dark Litzen on the collar indicates that they were most likely yellow, as opposed to white for the 2.Garde Dragoner Rgt.

[Brian Wolfe]

Many thanks for the information Chip.

Cheers

Brian

[Thomas]

Many thanks for the information Chip.

Not so fast, he looks to me to be Prussian Landgendarmerie. The "Foot" or Fu?gendarmen had the round peak and the "mounted" or Berittene Gendarmen the square peak like a dragoon helmet. The Preu?en Landgendarmerie (Rural Police) wore Polish cuffs with a single Garde Litzen, and in 1889 Swedish cuffs with double Garde Litzen were adopted for the Landgendarmerie. According to Ingo L?hken Die Polizei-Uniformen in Preu?en 1866 1945 (p.19) the Garde star was adopted in 1895.

[Brian Wolfe]

Not so fast, he looks to me to be Prussian Landgendarmerie. The "Foot" or Fu?gendarmen had the round peak and the "mounted" or Berittene Gendarmen the square peak like a dragoon helmet. The Preu?en Landgendarmerie (Rural Police) wore Polish cuffs with a single Garde Litzen, and in 1889 Swedish cuffs with double Garde Litzen were adopted for the Landgendarmerie. According to Ingo L?hken Die Polizei-Uniformen in Preu?en 1866 1945 (p.19) the Garde star was adopted in 1895.

Hi Thomas,

Just to get this clear in my mind. Are you saying this fellow is a Prussian Landgendarmerie and would have been mounted? I assume that the Garde star is the star on his helmet so the photo would have to be after 1895. I'm a novice to uniform identification but I can't resist purchasing these older photographs for my collection.

Thanks for you assistance.

Cheers

Brian

[Mike Dwyer]

I'm no expert, but he may be onto something. If he was a Garde Dragoon he'd have double litzen on his collar and I would think it would come up high enough that you'd see them, and you can't see any litzen on the little bit of collar that's peeking out of his greatcoat. The Preu?en Landgendarmerie did wear the Garde star on their helmets, so he could be one of them because a single litzen wouldn't show in the photo because it's down more towards the middle of the collar and is hidden by the greatcoat collar, plus he only has a single litzen on his greatcoat too.

Edited April 10, 2008 by Mike Dwyer

[Chip]

Thomas: You may be on to something here, but the single Garde Litze would mean this photo is pre-1889? Too bad we can't see the shoulder boards.

Mike: If I am not mistaken, in the case of a regiment with double Litzen, when worn with NCO collar lace, the Litzen were normally reduced from two to one. I don't think this held true for the Kragenpatten on overcoats, so whatever unit this is, it used only one Litze.

[Mike Dwyer]

Mike: If I am not mistaken, in the case of a regiment with double Litzen, when worn with NCO collar lace, the Litzen were normally reduced from two to one. I don't think this held true for the Kragenpatten on overcoats, so whatever unit this is, it used only one Litze.

Chip,

You know a lot more about this than I do, so I don't make any claim to being necessarily correct. I agree with you about the one Litzen with NCO collar lace. On the uniform collar peeking out of the greatcoat, I don't see any NCO lace at all, but perhaps I'm missing it, it just looks like plain collar fabric to me.

[Thomas]

Thomas: You may be on to something here, but the single Garde Litze would mean this photo is pre-1889? Too bad we can't see the shoulder boards.

Mike: If I am not mistaken, in the case of a regiment with double Litzen, when worn with NCO collar lace, the Litzen were normally reduced from two to one. I don't think this held true for the Kragenpatten on overcoats, so whatever unit this is, it used only one Litze.

I have to admit that I noticed the single litzen on the collar of the coat, and remembered that I had read about the Prussian mounted Landgendarmerie on the pickelhaubes forum here where it was discussed that they wore the square peak like a dragoon helmet but only wore single collar litzen. According to that thread, the LG wore a single litzen on the collar never a double. So the collar would only show a single litzen. The double litzen was only worn on the swedish cuffs after 1889 when they changed from polish cuffs with single litzen. Cuffs can't be seen, but this had to be sometime after 1895 when the LG adopted the guard star.

[Chip]

Mike,

I am not sure if the ranks in the LG mirrored those of the army, but the NCO Borte on the overcoat Kragenpatten could represent any of the ranks of Unteroffizier, Sergeant, F?hnrich, Vizefeldwebel or Offizierstellvertreter. All of these ranks work Tresse on the tunic collar.

Chip

[Mike Dwyer]

Mike,

I am not sure if the ranks in the LG mirrored those of the army, but the NCO Borte on the overcoat Kragenpatten could represent any of the ranks of Unteroffizier, Sergeant, F?hnrich, Vizefeldwebel or Offizierstellvertreter. All of these ranks work Tresse on the tunic collar.

Chip

Chip,

Yes, I saw that. Perhaps I misunderstood your earlier post, I thought you were implying that we might not be able to see the Litzen on his tunic collar because of his NCO lace and I was saying I didn't see any NCO lace which would lead me to believe more that there's only a single Litzen hiding behind that overcoat collar; because if there was double Litzen and no NCO lace you'd see the top part of the Litzen on his collar. As an NCO if he was in a double Litzen unit wouldn't there still be double Litzen on his overcoat Kragenpatten? I honestly don't know, just asking.

[Chip]

Mike,

The double Litzen on overcoat Kragenpatten was not affected by the additon of NCO Borte, even if it was the two strips of Borte that a Feldwebel wore. Here is an example of a double Litzen overcoat tab with two strips of NCO Borte (Hessian Leib Garde Inf.Rgt.Nr.115).

[Mike Dwyer]

Mike,

The double Litzen on overcoat Kragenpatten was not affected by the additon of NCO Borte, even if it was the two strips of Borte that a Feldwebel wore. Here is an example of a double Litzen overcoat tab with two strips of NCO Borte (Hessian Leib Garde Inf.Rgt.Nr.115).

Chip,

Thanks for the example. So am I correct in assuming if this fellow only has one litzen on his overcoat Kragenpatten then there's only one on his tunic collar too?

[Chip]

Mike,

Yes.

Chip