SS? Police? Sword

[Rod]

WEEEEEllllll.... here I go again... floundering in the sea of my ignorance!!!

I have a WKC police sword in transist to me. It is a TR police sword BUT with SS runes on the reverse ricasso of the blade.

Was the original owner a member of the SS? OR just a plain ole "vanilla" policeman AFTER Himmler took control of the police????????

I am told that it is proper for a WKC not to have SS proofs on the hilt or scabbard which this one does NOT have.

Yesss I know I should have checked this out first, but my impulsive nature took control !!!!

PLeaseeeee respond!!!!

Good Ole Rod (doing his very best)

Edited April 29, 2008 by Rod

[Kev in Deva]

Pictures? Pictures? and more Pictures, please to help identification

Kevin in Deva.

[Rod]

Ok here are the pics!!

I should have added it has an SS NCO portepee.

Rod

[Robin Lumsden]

Rod.

That stamp on the blade was used by WKC instead of the usual SS proof stamp. It is typical of that maker.

The knot suggests that the original wearer was a warrant officer in both the police and the SS. Otherwise, a normal police knot would have been worn.

Usually, police men with SS membership also opted for runes in the pommel, although that was an optional extra.

Nice sword.

[Rod]

Robin.... thanks for the great information.

Hummm .... both a policeman AND SS ..... sounds like a fully committed to the cause guy!!!

Rod

[nesredep]

Rod.

That stamp on the blade was used by WKC instead of the usual SS proof stamp. It is typical of that maker.

The knot suggests that the original wearer was a warrant officer in both the police and the SS. Otherwise, a normal police knot would have been worn.

Usually, police men with SS membership also opted for runes in the pommel, although that was an optional extra.

Nice sword.

Hello!

Very interesting comment.

All the best

Nesredep

[Robin Lumsden]

Hummm .... both a policeman AND SS ..... sounds like a fully committed to the cause guy!!!

Himmler (and Hitler) realised early on that it was the police, not the army or the SS, who had the real executive powers of arrest, detention etc. that the Nazis would rely on to control the country.

There was a drive after 1936 to recruit as many policemen as possible into the Allgemeine-SS, and to encourage civilian A-SS men to join the police as a profession.

Himmler's aim was to completely merge the police and the SS into a single Nazi-controlled State Protection Corps.

So dual membership of the SS and the police was quite common.

[Rod]

Robin ... again thanks so very much.

Perhaps it is just my lack of knowledge but it does not seem these swords have gotten the full attention they deserve. Fascinating history!! In any event I am glad I made this implusive purchase.

It makes a very nice companion to my SS dagger and significantly less of an "investment".

Rod

[JoeW]

Rod, the SS-Police swords have received quite a bit of attention in published literature over the past thirty years. Most recently by Thomas Wittman in his work on SS blades. But I think perhaps you misunderstood Robin's comments?

The rune mark used by WKC was similar to the "runes in diamond" mark seen on other officer and NCO blades. The mark was called a "Warrenzeichen" by the SS and indicated production according to standards established by the RFSS and Chief of the German Police. It did not signify the sword was sold only to an SS member. I had written for Tom Johnson at one time that I thought the Warrenzeichen was a means of limiting production of the SS-Police swords in order to secure a kick-back for the SS from approved manufacturers.

Your police NCO sword came with an SS NCO knot and that suggests the SS membership. Just like putting an officers knot on an SS-Police officer's sword would suggest SS membership. It is the knot that suggests membership in the SS, not the runes on the sword.

Edited May 8, 2008 by JoeW

[Rod]

JoeW...... thanks for the clarification.

Rod

[Rod]

I have a few more questions.

1. Robin observed the owner was a "warrant officer". I am not familar with SS ranks. What would be the official SS rank designation of a "warrant officer"? It seems that I have read that some of the higher NCO ranks were "with and without" a portepee. (I could be all wet).

2. I understand collectors especially prize the Krebs manufactured police swords. Would someone comment as to why this is so. Where do the WKC swords stand in relationship to Krebs?

3. It seems to me that NCO police swords are less prized price wise than the officers version. Is this just because there are more of them? I seem to remember reading that it is fairly easy to "convert" an NCO to the (more expensive) officers version and even to replace the handle eagle with the SS runes to make a true (even more expensive) SS sword.

As you can tell I am not familar with police swords, so any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks so much,

Rod

[Robin Lumsden]

1. Robin observed the owner was a "warrant officer". I am not familar with SS ranks. What would be the official SS rank designation of a "warrant officer"? It seems that I have read that some of the higher NCO ranks were "with and without" a portepee. (I could be all wet).

Rod.

'Warrant Officers' would equate to SS-Hauptscharfuehrer-Sturmscharfuehrer..................but I was referring to the police NCO grades entitled to wear swords. Even the lowest police man was technically an 'NCO' so to speak. Only the higher non-coms were entitled to wear swords. The lower ranks wore police bayonets.

[Robin Lumsden]

P.S.

Police NCO swords are actually rarer than the officer swords, as fewer men were entitled to wear them.

[Rod]

Robin.... many thanks for the information... AND the picture is great and very appreciated!!!

Rod

[vestae]

Nice police blade

Sebastien.

[Guest IMHF]

Rod.

That stamp on the blade was used by WKC instead of the usual SS proof stamp. It is typical of that maker.

The knot suggests that the original wearer was a warrant officer in both the police and the SS. Otherwise, a normal police knot would have been worn.

Usually, police men with SS membership also opted for runes in the pommel, although that was an optional extra.

Nice sword.

You have great information about this sword. Thank you I will use it as reference

Thank you

Lorenzo

Edited August 9, 2008 by IMHF

[Guest IMHF]

Ok here are the pics!!

I should have added it has an SS NCO portepee.

Rod

Very beautiful Sword

Thank you for sharing the images

Lorenzo