Sword Sharpening?

[Rod]

I have an interest in imperial swords. I have seen a few with "light" sharpening. Was there any official directive to do this, or is it simply an after period tinkering?

Rod

[GeorgeCL]

Dress sword should not be sharpened.

Usually done after the fact by the vet or future owners.

George

[Rod]

George.... thanks for the reply.

I am (was) looking seriously at two german imperial navy swords with damascus ($$) blades that show "light" sharpening. RATS!!

Rod

[Guest Rick Research]

No no no... all is NOT lost, necessarily.

Swords that were carried IN ACTION were sharpened by the wearers. Fairly common with navy swords, since they were off in the colonies for many long years of action before the war, as landing parties. Many army officers sharpened theirs when they marched off in 1914-- anticipating 1870 all over again.

Of course, other than whether it is done professionally or by somebody with a file one can never be sure whether a sword WAS sharpened by its wearer or whether it was done in 1982 by a kid whacking watermelons.

See the thread on tiny Admiral Hopman, for instance? His sword was sharpened, and doubtless used, on his several overseas pre-1914 trips.

[swordfish]

It's critical to diferentiat between a combat saber and a dress saber. Typically, any saber we see today from the Imperial era, Weimar era, and TR era, that have been sharpened were all done post war by the vet, or the vets offspring. You also have to look at the nature of the sword. Theoretically, a degen style saber would be intended for a thrusting and stabbing motion, where as the saber itself would be intended for a slashing and cutting motion.

Recently we had a topic on the switch from sabers to dress daggers during the reich. Sword became totally impractical during the 1st world war because of the time spent in confinded area such as the trenches. They were more of a haggle than anything else.

The last truly functional sabers were intended for cavalry units mounted on horse back. Functional sabers of course became a moot weapons when cavalry units became mechanized.

In short, I would guess your swords were sharpened sometime after 1945, even though they are imperial era pieces.

[Rod]

Hi Rick!!

Well I bit the bullet and a NAVY one with "some very light sharpening" is in transit to me.

The blade is marked "Ges. Gesch" "Eisenhauer" and "Damast Stahl".

It has the name LANGNER engraved on the reverse lock guard.

Any chance could he be researchable??????

Rod

Edited June 5, 2008 by Rod

[swordfish]

It looks like a nice piece. I don't see a whole lot of sharpening so it's really probably pretty minimal. As far as reasearching the name, it's certainly possible. It's going to take time and energy. There's a good contact both at GD and I belive he's a member here who primary interest is researching named edged weapons. He's the gentleman from Spain if you know who i'm talking about. If you don't PM me and i'll put you in contact with him. He can probably give you some tips on where to start and what course to follow.

[Guest Rick Research]

Uhhhh, that's what I do, here.

Johannes Langner, born 23 June 1884. Navy as 1 Year Volunteer 1 October 1907

Leutnant der Reserve Matrosenartillerie 13.6.12 B

Oberleutnant dR MA 17.6.15 I

discharged 21.1.20

charakterisiert Kapit?nleutnant dR MA 24.9.20

II. Matrosen Artillerie Abteilung (Wilhelmshaven) to August 1915. 2. Marine Artillerie Regiment to May 1917. Briefly in V. M AA (island of Helgoland) that month. IX. MAA (Friedrichsort) to October 1918, then VIII. MAA (Falkenstein).

Shown with the EK2 in the February 1918 Navy Rank List. He was a resident of Munich, so I expect he got a BMV4X by war's end-- the navy was notoriously slow in listing awards, and he may already have had one by 1918 given his 15 months at the front in Flanders with the 2nd Naval Artillery Regiment.

1928: Member of the Marine-Offiziere-Verband # 4297: Zivilingenieur, gerichtlich vereidigter Sachverst?ndigter, owner of the Firma Johannes Langner Ingenieur-B?ro, Bayerstra?e 79, M?nchen. He lived at Hohenstaufenstra?e 1 there. Home phone R 53973.

1931: same (business dealing with motor vehicles, motors, motorcycles, industrial equipment)

1935: same

1937: same, but home address moved to Krumbacherstra?e 5, Telephone 371 973. For the first time he shows "*" as "married."

1939: same.

After that he disappears. Not listed as a member in 1960 or 1963.

He would certainly have had his blade officially sharpened at mbilization in 1914 for repelling anyone attacking the coastal fortifications where he was assigned.

[swordfish]

Sorry Rick.

I'm new to this forum so don't really know who's who around these here parts.

[Rod]

Rick!!!

MANY MANY thanks again.

You certainly make my appreciation of my acquisitions sooooo much greater!!!!

Rod

[Rod]

Hummmm .... I am more than curious...

Why does the lion head on the hilt of my sword have a red eye and a green eye??

Rod

[Guest Rick Research]

Traditional naval port and starboard running lights.

[Rod]

Rick..... again many thanks.

Running lights!!! I never would have guessed!!!!

Rod

[Rod]

WEll the eagle has landed and the sword is in hand!!!

The "sharpening" is very minmal but very very carefully done. .... certainly not a kitchen table job!!!

Soooo this reinforces Rick's observations (as if that was need ).

The only flaw I see is that the leather scabbard has three creases ... two very minor with the leather barely broken with the third one a little deeper but still not immediately fatal. I guess taxi cab and revolving doors have taken some toll!!!!! Other than that there is absolutely NO abuse or tinkering.

I come from the school that cleans their swords but only to the point of maintaining condition.

In this case I am thinking of (carefully) dropping some glue into the leather creases/cracks and then applying some Pecards conditioner. I could not care less about resale value as that is not the purpose of my collecting.

Has anyone ever run into a similar situation and might offer some advice to me????

Rod

Edited June 10, 2008 by Rod

[Guest Rick Research]

Don't do ANYTHING until you have heard from Swordguy here!!!!!!

I seem to remember a case from my yout' of a sword being GLUED INTO THE SCABBARD by seepage-- t'ain't purty.

[Guest Rick Research]

OK, here is what he told me--

"As you know official orders were given to sharpen officers swords just before mobilization. A stone grinding wheel was used for troops in the field and some officers sent their swords to the professional in the garrison town they were stationed in.

Do not put glue on the scabbard. Using Pecards will ruin the leather scabbard--it's a refined product that will rot the leather. Use book oil from Talis Library Services, NY NY available on line. Use leather de-acidifier from the British museum also available from Talis. Blade needs to be waxed with Renaissance wax from same supplier. Nothing should be done that is not 100% reversible!!!"

[Rod]

Rick...

Thanks for getting and relaying the info to me!!

Thanks too to Swordguy!!

Rod

[Tony J]

OK, here is what he told me--

"As you know official orders were given to sharpen officers swords just before mobilization. A stone grinding wheel was used for troops in the field and some officers sent their swords to the professional in the garrison town they were stationed in.

Hi Rick,

I'm a bit late to this party.

I recall reading about this sharpening of swords. I just don't remember where at the moment. Many officer's did so not because of the order to sharpen government owned ordinance sabers but as a show of solidarity with the Kaiser's call to arms. Apparenty it was part of the partiotic mind set at the time and was done as an approval or bonding gesture by many in the officers' corp. Similar to US paras cropping their hair Mohawk style before the D-Day drop.

Before the outbreak of hostilities in August of 1914, the sword was still viewed as a viable if not effective weapon in certain situations. The saber saw service with the the cavalyman's lance throughout the war on various fronts.

Obviously, the rapid evolution of warfare during the early stages of WWI soon relegated the sword to the side lines as a symbol of officer's authority at the front. Sabers continued to be part of the cavalryman's kit as a functional weapon.

Tony

[Guest IMHF]

Dress sword should not be sharpened.

Usually done after the fact by the vet or future owners.

George

Thank you

I surely will keep this in mind with my swords and daggers:

Lorenzo

Edited August 9, 2008 by IMHF

[Rod]

I am sure I am testing the patience of those that see this posting... and I do thank you for it.

Based on the pics I have posted.... do the hangers.... braided leather...... does it appear to you that they are origiinal and proper for a WW1 sword????

Many thanks,

Rod

[Guest Rick Research]

They are very much so indeed.

I thought Admiral Hopman's were shown in his "Ferocious Little Admiral" sword thread, since his also came with these rarely found accessories, but I guess they didn't make it into my scans.

The navy didn't go with fancy-schmancy suspensions because of their long frock coats. Can't put my hands on a good photo, but these leather "string" suspensions were worn INSIDE the frockcoat, and the sword clasped by the grip when carried in that fashion.

Couldn't be more perfect.

[Rod]

Rick....

Thanks so very very much.

Rod

[Rod]

I have finally been able to add a "final" touch to add on the wall beside Langner's sword.

The visor cap badge is for a reserve officer (note the cross over the red center of the Riech's cockade) as Langner was. Gee these are hard to come up with.

The naval flanders cross was easer to find. I really like this even though it was a post WW1 "unofficial award". I think it is a beauty.

Even though there is no record of Langner being wounded, this gold wound badge seemed like an appropriate item to add. I understand these are often copied. I did get a Detlev Niemann authorization with it which gives me confidence.

I have learned that imperial naval items are like looking for "hen's teeth"..... but so worth the effort to find them.

Thanks,

Rod

Edited December 20, 2008 by Rod

[Guest Rick Research]

Congrats on the cap insignia. Not only rare but like any Imperial navy insignia hideously expensive.

My only example is much rattier than yours! :cheers:

[Rod]

Hi Rick,

Yep, the cap insignia was pricey .... and the gold wound badge tooooo.. ouch!!

One of these days I will get a real bargain, but this was sure not the time.

Regardless, I am and will enjoy them.

Rod