Epaulettes

[dante]

Can any kind soul identify these thanks, Paul

[dante]

Can any kind soul identify these thanks, Paul

2

[dante]

Hi there these are for a Prussian Milit?r- Beamte, who was a "kanzleisekret?r oder registrator (generalstab)". That is a (registrar in the general staff). The function of these guys was the official registration of general staff information - that is the authoritive source.

Nice one is there a good book on the subject?

[Glenn J]

The best source of information on the Militar-Beamte is the Tafel illustrations - 160 to 166. I have got these in JPG files and have tried to upload to this site but have been technologically defeated

Apart from Tafel - there is the Imperial Australian websites which covered the Austrian Beamte quite well. The German is not well documented, and even with Tafel you are dealing with some very archaic german phrases - most of which have disapeared from contempory german military terminology/ lexicons.

The Militar-Beamte were a very important part of the German military machine and there is lots of Beamte uniform insignia out there/ and to my knowledge it has not been repro. As well, if you are looking to collect high level German staff/ general's insignia then the Beamte are an important part of the collection.

jj08,

although I would tend to agree that the board looks like that of a junior grade official in the General Staff or War Ministry (Carmine field and gold embossed half moon), the problem is, is that in Prussia, these middle ranking officials did not wear a uniform in peacetime and consequently there would be no need for the epaulette in the field. In fact the dress regulations for the Militray Administration "Zusammenstellung der Uniformen und Abzeichen der Beamten des K?niglich Preu?ischen Heeres vom 5. Oktober 1908" does not show that the Kanzleisekret?r in the General Staff as being entitled to epaulettes. The case was different in Bavaria.

Although "Das Deutsche Heer" by Kn?tel, Pietsch and Collas is indeed a wonderful resource, it only deals with the situation as at 1914. The titles and rank insignia were perpetually changing and I have consulted the following resources in my studies of this subject for Prussia:

Prussian Armee-Verordnungsblatt (1868-1918)

Zusammenstellung der Uniformen und Abzeichen der Beamten des K?niglich Preu?ischen Heeres vom 5. Oktober 1908

Siekmann's Taschenkalener f?r Beamte der Milit?r-Verwaltung (various years)

Dienst-Vorschriften der K?niglich Preu?ischen Armee, Zweite Abteilung, I. Anzug, 1879

There are of course further titles (including modern works) on Bavaria and period works for Saxony.

The W?rttemberg Milit?r-Verordnungsblatt details the uniforms and insignia as related to W?rttemberg as changes occured.

Regards

Glenn

[Chip]

I was thinking a Pharmacy official, as they would have had a dress uniform.

Chip

[Glenn J]

Chip,

the Oberapotheker had a underlay (Unterfutter) colour of Carmine red. That appears to be dark blue?

Regards

Glenn

[Chip]

Chip,

the Oberapotheker had a underlay (Unterfutter) colour of Carmine red. That appears to be dark blue?

Regards

Glenn

Glenn,

I just shot from the hip on that one. Looking in Das Deutsche Heer, it does appear that the Apotheker had a Karmesinrot top and bottom.

Chip

[Glenn J]

Glenn,

I just shot from the hip on that one. Looking in Das Deutsche Heer, it does appear that the Apotheker had a Karmesinrot top and bottom.

Chip

Chip,

in fact it could be an Oberapotheker prior to the 29 May 1902 change of insignia for military pharmaceutical officials. Prior to the AKO of 14 May 1902 (KM Nr. 1321/5. 02. M.A. of 29 May 1902) the military pharmaceutical officials wore an epaulette with Carmine field and dark blue underlay with a gold embossed half moon. Following these orders the half moon changed to silver and the underlay also to carmine.

Regards

Glenn

[Chip]

Thanks Glenn. I guess I got lucky with my answer afterall. How do you access these regulations so quickly? Surely, you don't have them all readily available?

Chip

Edited August 18, 2008 by Chip

[Glenn J]

Thanks Glenn. I guess I got lucky with my answer afterall. How do you access these regulations so quickly? Surely, you don't have them all readily available?

Chip

Chip,

well I have copies of all the relevant Armee-Verordnungsbl?tter. From these I have produced a chronology listing changes in titles and insignia which allows fairly rapid look-ups for the relevant orders.

Regards

Glenn

[Chip]

So when do you publish this?

Chip

[Glenn J]

Here is an extract.

Regards

Glenn

[dante]

Here is an extract.

Regards

Glenn

Cheers Guys, would these be rare?

[Chip]

That would be pretty difficult to say. Certainly, there are only a handful of military official's uniforms/insignia collectors. So I would say regardless of the scarcity, there is not a popular interest in this collecting field and thus the value would not be any more than for any other more common epaulette. The storage case is a nice addition and would, I think make the set more attractive.

Chip

[dante]

That would be pretty difficult to say. Certainly, there are only a handful of military official's uniforms/insignia collectors. So I would say regardless of the scarcity, there is not a popular interest in this collecting field and thus the value would not be any more than for any other more common epaulette. The storage case is a nice addition and would, I think make the set more attractive.

Chip

Thanks Guys :cheers: