Wounded soldiers should be awarded British Purple Hearts

[James Hoard]

Sorry James,

but I totally disagree, the purpose of an wound medal is to identify the soldier as being wounded,

it has not the purpose to point the finger of blame.

Wound and no medal = civil accident, work related accident, sports accident.

The way the Civil Service work with regards cost, would also ensure it will never happen as there is just not enough

blue on blue incidents to warrant it.

If the soldiers wounds are so severe they would be medically discharged.

Kevin in Deva.

Kevin,

Well, if it is the wounding that is to be recognised why are wounds received in "blue on blue" actions not to be recognised?

As for frequency of incidents, it all depends on what one regards as "not enough". I would suggest a good hard look at the actual statistics. In the First Gulf War the UK lost 24 casualties killed, of whom 9 were killed by American attacks. That is 37.5% of deaths. The US's own statistics for their own forces were 24%. Comparable figures for conflicts from the Great War until 1991 averaged at about 15%.

Of course, given the sensitivity of the issue, one suspects that the real figures an incidents are played down and attempts made to find every other possible reason to record, to avoid the "blue on blue" label. So the real figure is likely to be actually higher.

Why the problem seems to be getting worse is difficult to understand. Despite the supposed system of identification for allied forces, extra training, and so on, problems persist. One still has reports from British soldiers that they are being misidentified by the American, even though they have been waving huge union jacks and yelling out that they are British.

Cheers,

James

[Kev in Deva]

Kevin,

Well, if it is the wounding that is to be recognised why are wounds received in "blue on blue" actions not to be recognised?

As for frequency of incidents, it all depends on what one regards as "not enough". I would suggest a good hard look at the actual statistics. In the First Gulf War the UK lost 24 casualties killed, of whom 9 were killed by American attacks. That is 37.5% of deaths. The US's own statistics for their own forces were 24%. Comparable figures for conflicts from the Great War until 1991 averaged at about 15%.

Of course, given the sensitivity of the issue, one suspects that the real figures an incidents are played down and attempts made to find every other possible reason to record, to avoid the "blue on blue" label. So the real figure is likely to be actually higher.

Why the problem seems to be getting worse is difficult to understand. Despite the supposed system of identification for allied forces, extra training, and so on, problems persist. One still has reports from British soldiers that they are being misidentified by the American, even though they have been waving huge union jacks and yelling out that they are British.

Cheers,

James

Hallo James,

I am sure there is a need for a Wound Medal or Wound Insignia and one may even be created.

I am just as sure there will never be a Wound Medal or Insignia denoting that an Allied Country

was guilty of the wounding.

Are you implying that there were less "Blue on Blues" in W.W.1 and W.W.2 and Other Campaigns?

Very hard to say or compare as these are ongoing current conflicts.

Mis-identification occur in war, as sad as it is, it happens and Coalition troops have made mistakes with regards what

were perceived to be "enemy" threats, resulting in civilian casualties, even all the more common when fighting in such a

mobile, fluid environment of modern warfare.

You implication that "Blue on Blue" casualties are higher but, being disguised is pointless without any substantial evidence,

as is putting the blame on the Americans, the soldiers on the ground are aware that such incidents can happen,

and seem to accept it as part of the job.

But, to suggest their is a need for a creation of a specific Medal or Insignia to point the "finger of blame."

is in my honest opinion baseless.

I have never seen or read of any serving member, veteran, of the British Forces stating this case,

or any member of an Association or political group calling for such an item.

And I have never heard of any country, anywhere, calling for such an item,

to be added to their inventory of insignia or decorations.

So we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Cordially,

Kevin in Deva.

[James Hoard]

Hallo James,

Are you implying that there were less "Blue on Blues" in W.W.1 and W.W.2 and Other Campaigns?

Very hard to say or compare as these are ongoing current conflicts.

Cordially,

Kevin in Deva.

Kevin,

The figures I quoted are from the detailed study conducted for the US Department of Defence after the First Gulf War.

I quoted the First Gulf War because, as far as I know, that conflict is over. If I was quoting from the present Gulf War or Afghanistan, obviously I would have said so.

As for soldiers calling for this and calling for that, the whole idea of a wound medal did not come from soldiers in the first place. It arose out of a newspaper campaign, subsequently taken up by politicians who then told the top brass to look into it.

Cheers,

James

[Kev in Deva]

Kevin,

The figures I quoted are from the detailed study conducted for the US Department of Defence after the First Gulf War.

I quoted the First Gulf War because, as far as I know, that conflict is over. If I was quoting from the present Gulf War or Afghanistan, obviously I would have said so.

As for soldiers calling for this and calling for that, the whole idea of a wound medal did not come from soldiers in the first place. It arose out of a newspaper campaign, subsequently taken up by politicians who then told the top brass to look into it.

Cheers,

James

Hallo James

Politicians telling the military what to do now there's a thought

And the end result of the Brass looking into it was what?

Did they specify a "Blue on Blue" Award??

Thanks for the source of the statistics.

Kevin in Deva

[James Hoard]

Kevin,

We have not reached the end of the world yet, so we have no more idea of what the "end result" is than we know what the full casualty statistics for the current conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan are.

Whether the brass recommended blue on blue awards or not is neither here nor there. The clamour for such awards will arise in exactly the same way as the proposal for the medal in the first place. The press will create a stir if they try and deny it to those killed in the next such American attack on British troops.

Incidentally, the UK proposal has not actually specified who exactly will and who will not receive the medal.

Cheers,

James

[The Monkey God]

Isn`t there a K.I.A medal being issued now? Haven`t seen what it looks like, has anyone got a picture?

[Kev in Deva]

Isn`t there a K.I.A medal being issued now? Haven`t seen what it looks like, has anyone got a picture?

Thats the first I have heard about it. ;)

[TacHel]

Simple, re-establish the wound stripe. The Canadians have bought it back.

Regards,

Johnsy

We brought back the wound stripe a looong time ago. But it has now been replaced by the "Sacrifice Medal".

It is on hold for a bit due to the fact it is only awarded retroactively to October 2001, there's a fight to go back further. There's also a fight to change the prerequisites a bit.

[leigh kitchen]

You get a "medal" if you're killed in UN service, but I've never seen photos of it - unless it's that glass paper weight looking item shown on some UN websites.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/peacekeepers%...ulettin_ENG.pdf

[Ed_Haynes]

That is indeed what it seems to be. You, being dead, will have no opportunity to wear a medal. And your next-of-kin won't either, so why not a table ornament?

[leigh kitchen]

Yes, an interesting talking point, a nice centrepiece at dinner. Far more useful than a "mothers cross" type medal which I can't see being as appreciated bu berieved next of kin as they presumably once were.

[Tiger-pie]

^ Makes for a nice paperweight...

[volkssturm]

well, I know that japanese issued medal for the families of killed soldiers, a very nice one by the way, a cherry blossom flower; germans after wwi issued medals in black for widows and families of falled soldiers too, and I think italians di the same, I think that american soldiers who die in war recieve a postumly purple hearth with his/her name on it but really Iam not sure about that

[volkssturm]

well, I know that japanese issued medal for the families of killed soldiers, a very nice one by the way, a cherry blossom flower; germans after wwi issued medals in black for widows and families of falled soldiers too, and I think italians di the same, I think that american soldiers who die in war recieve a postumly purple hearth with his/her name on it but really Iam not sure about that

That message was directed to The monkey God who asked: Isn`t there a K.I.A medal being issued now? Haven`t seen what it looks like, has anyone got a picture?

[servicepub]

Yes, an interesting talking point, a nice centrepiece at dinner. Far more useful than a "mothers cross" type medal which I can't see being as appreciated bu berieved next of kin as they presumably once were.

I have seen a Canadian Forces Corporal, widow of a CF soldier killed in A'stan, wearing the Memorial Cross mounted with her own A'stan medals. Of course, the Mother's Cross representative at the annual Remembrance Day ceremony wears hers - with pride I assume.

[Vaughan]

In WW1 British next of kin recieved a brass plaque and of course the right to wear their husbans/son/fathers medals at official services on the left breast. Which still applies. No idea if any other country has a similar system; presumibly Commonwealth nations do since we share many traditions?

[Vaughan]

Sorry, I meant right breast.

[Ed_Haynes]

. . . and of course the right to wear their husbans/son/fathers medals at official services on the left breast. Which still applies.

People, these days, say this a lot, but no one has ever presented any evidence supporting this (sad) policy and it seems to be not at all true. Only the recipient has any right to wear his (her) medals. You wonder where this myth came from?

It is commonly done in Australia, for example. Doesn't make it legitimate, though.

Edited April 20, 2009 by Ed_Haynes

[Vaughan]

Well wether they have the right or not, it's commonly done. I suppose it would take a particullarly officious oaf to order there removal.

[Vaughan]

Incidently this is the Australian regs.

2.44 A person in the immediate family of a deceased recipient of a decoration or medal may wear

the insignia awarded to that member, on occasions specifically designated for military commemoration.

The medals or ribbons of the medals are to be worn on the right breast and only when the person is

in civilian clothes; they are not permitted to be worn on uniform under any circumstances.

All you need to know can be found here.

www.defence.gov.au/ARM...P05/02.pdf

Britain follows the same principle, may be worn but not on uniform.

[Megan]

I recall at a service for the 'Old Contemptibles' people - indeed mostly veterans - asked why I was NOT wearing my grandfather's medals, which I was carrying. My response was that I hadn't earned them, & prefered to honour my grandfather by my presence, not by wearing HIS gongs!

(1914 Star + bar, 1914-20 War Medal, Victory Medal and Meritorious Service Medal, for the curious; he served in Royal Engineers Postal & Courier Service as a storeman, his civilian job being a storeman for the General Post Office!)

[Tiger-pie]

It is commonly done in Australia, for example. Doesn't make it legitimate, though.

It is legitimate here though.

[Ed_Haynes]

It is legitimate here though.

Won't quibble over words. It is allowed by regulations.

What is done in Australia if three grandchildren all want to wear grandad's gongs, do they all go out and have "replica" groups concocted?

I agree 110% with Megan here.

[Megan]

Once in my previous college - which did a lot of adult education - I noticed an older lady wearing a 1914-20 British War Medal (no ribbon) on a chain round her neck. I asked her about it and she told me that it was her father's - he'd had 3 daughters and each had one of his 'Pip, Squeak and Wilfred' to wear in his memory.

Part of me squealed at breaking up a family group, but the rest of me applauded the way in which the girls had chosen to keep his memory alive.

[Ed_Haynes]

Once in my previous college - which did a lot of adult education - I noticed an older lady wearing a 1914-20 British War Medal (no ribbon) on a chain round her neck. I asked her about it and she told me that it was her father's - he'd had 3 daughters and each had one of his 'Pip, Squeak and Wilfred' to wear in his memory.

Part of me squealed at breaking up a family group, but the rest of me applauded the way in which the girls had chosen to keep his memory alive.

At least she wasn't wearing it as a medal, claiming it as hers.

There is, of course, the old tradition of Victorian campaign medals being transformed by relatives and recipients into brooch pins, napkin rings, watch-fobs, necvktie pins, and even in an earlier era scarf rings. Many "helpful" dealers have re-transformed them into medals in recent decades.

The ethical and phaleristic complexities here are numerous.