British WW2 Ribbon Combination Question.

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Gents,

looking through some of my British items I have this one

and it occurred to me it has a strange combination, is it good?

Kevin in Deva.

[Kev in Deva]

Rear of the bar / strip there are no metal parts.

seems to be formed around a thin strip of card.

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

[censlenov]

Hi Kevin

It looks fine to me

Africa Star, Defense medal, 39-45 War medal with Proper MID Emblem, and Auxilary Airforce LS&GC medal. Were you just worried about the absence of the 39-45 star?

Cheers

Chris

[Riley1965]

What is the last ribbon?

Doc

[Kev in Deva]

Hi Kevin

It looks fine to me

Africa Star, Defense medal, 39-45 War medal with Proper MID Emblem, and Auxilary Airforce LS&GC medal. Were you just worried about the absence of the 39-45 star?

Cheers

Chris

No, mainly the fact that there was a Defence Medal and a War Medal 1939-45 on the same bar.

Doc, the last one is a Auxiliary Air-force Long Service and Good Conduct Ribbon.

Kevin in Deva.

[Hugh]

A funny little question on esoterica - for the 39-45 star, six months service in an operational command was specified. What happened to men who had, for example, 5 months and 20 days when the war ended? Did they get the medal? It wasn't their fault the war ended!

Same question about the Atlantic and Air Crew Europe Stars.

Hugh

[Guest Rick Research]

Could also be the second row of two rows with the top one missing.

These both came from two Sergeants then in the Australian Federal Police before all the duplication medals came along in the late 1970s+.

[Riley1965]

No, mainly the fact that there was a Defence Medal and a War Medal 1939-45 on the same bar.

Doc, the last one is a Auxiliary Air-force Long Service and Good Conduct Ribbon.

Kevin in Deva.

Kevin,

I have several documented groups with both The Defence medal and the 1939-1945 Medal.

Doc

[Ralph]

Extract for ACI 829/1945 - Conditions of award of campaignstars, clasps and the Defence Medal

"Those who have won an honour. decoration, mention in despatches, commendation for brave conduct or commendations for valuable services in the air for service in operations may be awarded the 1939-45 star with less than the requisite service. .

During the last 6 months of the war qualification for the award of the stars will be entry in a theatre of operations without the prior award of the 1939-45 star. However they must aggregate 6 months service (or two motnhs for aircrew) before being awarded the 1939-45 star"

As the ribbons show an MiD then there should be a 1939-45 Star ribbon. Perhaps he had another decoration/award e.g. DFC on a top row of two the other being the 1939-45 star

Ralph

[Ralph]

The combination of the Defence medal (basically three years service in the UK or 1 years service oversea in an area threatened by air attack) and the War medal (28 Days Full time uniformed service) is very common. Typically to Troops who served the whole of their service in the UK, those that returned from Dunkirk in 1940 and did not go oversea till the invasion of France etc.

[Kev in Deva]

Gentlemen

Many thanks for your input with regards this item,

much appreciated.

Ricky, nice bars

Kevin in Deva. :beer:

[Hugh]

Extract for ACI 829/1945 - Conditions of award of campaignstars, clasps and the Defence Medal

"Those who have won an honour. decoration, mention in despatches, commendation for brave conduct or commendations for valuable services in the air for service in operations may be awarded the 1939-45 star with less than the requisite service. .

During the last 6 months of the war qualification for the award of the stars will be entry in a theatre of operations without the prior award of the 1939-45 star. However they must aggregate 6 months service (or two motnhs for aircrew) before being awarded the 1939-45 star"

As the ribbons show an MiD then there should be a 1939-45 Star ribbon. Perhaps he had another decoration/award e.g. DFC on a top row of two the other being the 1939-45 star

Ralph

Just to make sure I've got it right, it seems this means that it should be possible for one to earn a France-Germany Star or Pacific Star without becoming eligible for the 39-45 Star. (I'm not referring to this bar, just a generic question.)

Best,

Hugh

[Ralph]

Yes - during the last 6 months of the War (8th May for Europe, September for Far East) it was possible to get the relevant Campaign Star without getting the 1939-45 Star first. I have seen quite a few groups with France and Germany Star w/o 1939-45 star e.g. entry into France in January 1945 qualified for the F+G Star only

Ralph

Edited September 16, 2008 by Ralph

[Ed_Haynes]

Yes - during the last 6 months of the War (8th May for Europe, September for Far East) it was possible to get the relevant Campaign Star without getting the 1939-45 Star first. I have seen quite a few groups with France and Germany Star w/o 1939-45 star e.g. entry into France in January 1945 qualified for the F+G Star only

Ralph

In the Indian Army, a Burma Star alone is also seen. Not common, but seen.

[Hugh]

Thanks to both of you. I've got it now.

Hugh

[Ed_Haynes]

But, given the period and conditions for the Africa Star, I can't see it as a single. I'd think an upper row is missing.

[MCMH]

I'd agree, must be missing the yop bar.

I know some have made reverence to single campaign stars, and rightly pointed out the qualification. Oddly, however, the most common instances I've seen of a Burma medal without 1939-45 Star is to Muslim members of the Battalion of the 10 Baluch Regt who were Captured in Singapore. I have varified two to known POWs, and the medals are swing mounted as worn, so I believe the lack of the 1939-45 star must have come down to an administration error.

[leigh kitchen]

Quite an admin error. I have a group including 1939 Star & Burma Star to a distant relative, an artilleryman who was captured at Singapore & died in Changi, & a similar group to a Cambridgeshire who was captured at Singapore & died in Japan - but of course, they're both British.

[MCMH]

Yes, the first group I came across (and bought - ent OBI 1945. WS Sub Major 1945) the medals were hanging by their threads on the swing bar, and I thought that the 1939-45 Star may have become detached. However the second group was to a Sepoy of the same same battalion, and it too was missing the 1939-45 star - the latter a confirmed POW.

I believe it must be something to do with how the medals were awarded before or following Independence, but do not have enough data to work it out. It is possible for instance that POW and Pension files were not transferred to Pakistan, and demobbed men had no way of confirming earlier service.

The F&G Star is another point, theoretically thousands should have been issued to Indian and Pakistani Troops, but only one named F&G Star is known. Equally the Pacific & North Africa clasps should be common place, but they rarely ever seen. Also naming of medals to Muslim soldiers is virtually unseen, yet those of the 3rd Bn JATs got their GSMs named.

[Ed_Haynes]

Yes, see:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=30570&st=47

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=30570&st=29

And you may see some familiar and unfamiliar items as well elsewhere on the same thread.

But we do wander perhaps?

Edited October 1, 2008 by Ed_Haynes