France Croix de Guerre - TOE or Metropolitan?

[Hugh]

I have a WW II CdG allegedly awarded to a British officer in Indochina. Should the ribbon be the TOE or the Metropolitan France ribbon?

Hugh

[Hendrik]

I have a WW II CdG

Hello Hugh,

That would mean the reverse has the year "1939" on it and thus the ribbon should be the red ribbon with 4 green stripes.

Cheers,

Hendrik

[Hugh]

Hello Hugh,

That would mean the reverse has the year "1939" on it and thus the ribbon should be the red ribbon with 4 green stripes.

Cheers,

Hendrik

Yes , I agree - that would be the right ribbon for services in Metropolitan France. But there is also a separate ribbon - red with a wide light blue center stripe for the CdG award for services outside metropolitain France - Theatre des Operations Exterieure (TOE). That's the question I'm asking.

Thanks,

Hugh

[Bison]

Hello Hugh

At the very beginning of the Indochina war, in 1945, the WWII croix de guerre was awarded. It was considered that this war was a continuation of WWII, after the last attacks by the Japanese against the French garrisons in 1945.

After that, in 1946, it was the Croix de guerre des th??tres d'op?rations ext?rieurs (TOE) which was attributed, up to the end in 1954.

I hope answer your question... if you know when this British officer was awarded... Before 1946, it is the WWII "1939" croix de guerre. After, it the the TOE, with the mention "th??tres d'op?rations ext?rieurs" on the reverse. In any case, the ribbon you have cannot be worn with the cross 1939.

Edited October 2, 2008 by Bison

[Hugh]

Hello Hugh

At the very beginning of the Indochina war, in 1945, the WWII croix de guerre was awarded. It was considered that this war was a continuation of WWII, after the last attacks by the Japanese against the French garrisons in 1945.

After that, in 1946, it was the Croix de guerre des th??tres d'op?rations ext?rieurs (TOE) which was attributed, up to the end in 1954.

I hope answer your question... if you know when this British officer was awarded... Before 1946, it is the WWII "1939" croix de guerre. After, it the the TOE, with the mention "th??tres d'op?rations ext?rieurs" on the reverse. In any case, the ribbon you have cannot be worn with the cross 1939.

Thanks so much, this sounds like exactly the data I needed. Just to make sure - the '39 CdG may never be worn with the red / light blue ribbon, and the TOE CdG may never be worn with the red / green striped ribbon, correct?

Hugh

[Bison]

Thanks so much, this sounds like exactly the data I needed. Just to make sure - the '39 CdG may never be worn with the red / light blue ribbon, and the TOE CdG may never be worn with the red / green striped ribbon, correct?

Hugh

Correct.

WWII croix de guerre :

TOE croix de guerre :

[Hugh]

Correct.

Thanks, Bison,

Your pictures reminded me of another question - are the ribbon devices (palm, star) also worn on the ribbon bar?

Hugh

[Bison]

Hi Hugh

The stars and palm are worn on the bar, but in small size.

Bison

[Hugh]

Hi Hugh

The stars and palm are worn on the bar, but in small size.

Bison

Thanks again. That's the only answer which would make any sense.

Hugh

[PKeating]

Some miniature stars...

Edited October 4, 2008 by PKeating

[Hugh]

Some miniature stars...

Thanks, Paul, it's good to be able to see them. But shouldn't the stars on the medal ribbon be full size?

Hugh

[PKeating]

You're the second person to cal me "Paul" in two days here! LOL! It's Paddy, BTW. You're absolutely right about the Stars on the ribbons of the medals themselves. The veteran was obviously unable to obtain full size Stars at the time. A couple have also migrated between the Valour Cross and its ribbon bar and his 1939-1945 War Medal should be wearing the Extreme Orient clasp seen on the Colonial Service Medal. The Indochine clasp belongs on the Colonial medal. This group came to me from one of the fellows who keeps an eye out for such things around Paris. These fellows are briefed to ask about the papers and, more often than not, the grandchildren flogging the medals have thrown the papers in the bin. Sometimes one gets lucky but I would have loved to have had the man's name as he was a serious Indo-China hand, serving there during the Japanese occupation and winning three Croix de Guerre. As Bison says, this was also awarded in the early stages of the Indo-China War. The small Colonial Service Medal is popularly known as the "Free French type". This man also served in the 1945-1954 Indo-China War, as his campaign medal indicates, and he may have served afterwards in Algeria, winning four Croix de la Valeur Militaire, this decoration being instituted in 1956. This would have entitled him to a further campaign medal, which he may not have claimed.

Ahhhhh, if only the little so-and-so who probably took these away for sale when granddad died had taken his papers too...

PK

Edited October 4, 2008 by PKeating

[Hugh]

You're the second person to cal me "Paul" in two days here! LOL! It's Paddy, BTW. You're absolutely right about the Stars on the ribbons of the medals themselves. The veteran was obviously unable to obtain full size Stars at the time. A couple have also migrated between the Valour Cross and its ribbon bar and his 1939-1945 War Medal should be wearing the Extreme Orient clasp seen on the Colonial Service Medal. The Indochine clasp belongs on the Colonial medal. This group came to me from one of the fellows who keeps an eye out for such things around Paris. These fellows are briefed to ask about the papers and, more often than not, the grandchildren flogging the medals have thrown the papers in the bin. Sometimes one gets lucky but I would have loved to have had the man's name as he was a serious Indo-China hand, serving there during the Japanese occupation and winning three Croix de Guerre. As Bison says, this was also awarded in the early stages of the Indo-China War. The small Colonial Service Medal is popularly known as the "Free French type". This man also served in the 1945-1954 Indo-China War, as his campaign medal indicates, and he may have served afterwards in Algeria, winning four Croix de la Valeur Militaire, this decoration being instituted in 1956. This would have entitled him to a further campaign medal, which he may not have claimed.

Ahhhhh, if only the little so-and-so who probably took these away for sale when granddad died had taken his papers too...

PK

Apologies, Paddy. There must be a Paul Keating on this (or other) forum. Isn't he the Japanese expert?

Your rundown on this man's career is enjoyable, places him right on the pages of Larteguy's Centurions. (and perhaps Praetorians.)

The sequence on this bar brings me to yet another question. Does anyone have data on the correct precedence for French medals? I have a few references, including Neville & de Hurst's Medal Ribbons of the World Part I, and brochures from Arthus Bertrand and Monnaie de Paris. Illustrations generally appear in roughly chronological order in N & DeH. A B has sorted them into categories (decorations, commemoratives, etc.). La Monnaie has such a list, and your bar follows that precedence. BUT the question arises (at least in my mind) because the Med. Coloniale precedes the WW II medal, and I assume that the Indochina service for which it was awarded probably followed WW II. Hence, the sequence doesn't follow Brit / American custom. (And why would we expect that it would?)

Best,

Hugh

Edited October 4, 2008 by Hugh

[PKeating]

I think the order of precedence for military awards is as follows. Military awards precede civil awards, the LdH aside. On combat fatigues, it often looks as if the wearer just pins them on any which way, with the really important ones like the LdH, MM, CdG and CdlVM foremost. But on the medal bars, ribbon bars and miniature racks I have observed here in France, this is how it seems to work. I am just focusing on WW1 and WW2 groups.

Bravery and merit awards:

L?gion d'Honneur; M?daille Militaire; Croix de Guerre; Croix de la Valeur Militaire; M?daille des Bless?s; Croix du Combattant Volontaire (incl R?sistance)

I have seen veterans with civilian orders like the Ordre Nationale du M?rite (1963) just after their M?daille Militaire and LdH, if held but in the main, the civilian stuff, like the various merit and academic orders, is tacked onto the end.

Commemorative medals:

M?daille de la Victoire (Inst 20.7.1922); M?daille Comm?morative de la Grande Guerre (inst 23.6.1920); M?daille Comm?morative de la Guerre 1939-1945 (inst 21.5.1946); M?daille de la Campagne d'Italie (inst 1.4.1953);M?daille des Services Volontaires de la France Libre (inst 4.4.1946); M?daille de la Campagne d'Indochine (inst 1.8.1953); M?daille Fran?aise des Op?rations de l'Organisation des Nations Unies en Cor?e (inst 8.1.1952); M?daille des Op?rations de S?curit? et de Mantien de l'Orde en Afrique du Nord (inst 11.1.1958)*; M?daille des Op?rations au Moyen Orient (inst 22.5.1957)**; M?daille Comm?morative Fran?aise (inst 9.10.1995)***

*Basically, Algeria but also for service in Tunisia and Morocco

**This is effectively the French "Suez Medal"

***For military operations abroad after 1.3.1991, which means the Balkans, Chad, West Africa, Afghanistan and so on.

Honour awards:

M?daille de la Reconnaissance Fran?aise (inst 13.7.1917); M?daille des ?vad?s (inst 20.8.1926); M?daille des Prisonniers Civils, D?port?s et Otages de la Guerre 1914-1918 (inst 14.3.1936); M?daille de la R?sistance (inst 19.2.1943); M?daille de la D?portation et de l'Internement pour Faits de R?sistance (inst 6.8.1948)*; M?daille de la D?portation et de l'Internement Politique (inst 9.9.1948)**; Insigne du R?fractaire (inst 21.10.1963)***; M?daille de la France Liber?e (inst 12.9.1947; Insigne des Bless?s de Guerre (inst 27.7.1916); M?daille de la D?fence Nationale (inst 21.4.1982); M?daille des Services Militaires Volontaires (inst 13.3.1975); M?daille de la Service de Sant? des Arm?es (inst 30.8.1962); M?daille d'Outre-Mer (inst 6.6.1962)****; M?daille de l'Afrique du Nord (inst 29.4.1997)

*Ribbon with vertical stripes indicates an award to Deportees (generally to KZ-Lagers) and diagonal stripes denotes Internees. You see both being worn if the recipient was interned and deported. The medals are identical in both cases.

**Same ribbon rules apply as per the Resistance version but this medal is for non-Resistance people interned and/or deported by Vichy or the Germans.

***A medal given to STO workers, many of whom ended up in the FFI. FTP and the FFL around the time of Liberation. My cousin wears one in his rack.

****Replacement for the old M?daille Coloniale. Pre-1962 veterans would thus wear the Colonial Medal in this order.

So, that provides a basic guide to the order in which medals should be worn by French military personnel from 1914 to the present day. Oh, yes, the Croix de Guerre de TO obviously ranks equal to the WW1 and WW2 crosses. I have seen both being worn, of course, with the World War versions taking precedence. But I think that about covers it.

Make of it what you will!

Paddy Keating

Here's a impressive group to a veteran of both wars who was also a long-serving fireman. Again, his papers had been binned by the house-clearers who took these, and the miniatures, to a coin dealer mate of mine in the belief that they would get rich. If the FFI fighter's badge is his, then I can probably find out who he was as these are numbered. Mind you, there should also be other ways. Look at this rack!

Edited October 4, 2008 by PKeating

[PKeating]

His miniatures. The fifth one from the left is the unofficial Volunteers' Medal with the "Engag? Volontaire" clasp. He wouldn't have been allowed to wear it on his uniform but he couldn't be prevented from including bling amongst his miniatures in civilian dress. I am sure our colleague "V?t?ran" will not object if I take the liberty of posting his remarks on this medal in another forum:

Much has been written about this strictly unofficial badge. To make it short, the vast majority of men who served with the French forces during WW1 were Standing Army - either "regulars" (professionnal soldiers or sailors) + men who were there because they had been called up for their National Military Service (at least 2 years at the time) - or reservists who were called up as belonging to the Active Reserve.

Men under age and men who had completed their obligations with the Reserves were not called up. This was also true of men who had been declared physically unfit fot National Military Service during peace-time.

A small number of other clearly defined cases of exemption were not called to serve.

All men belonging to such special categories (who were not supposed to fight but nevertheless joined the Forces) signed a special enlistment form called "Engagement volontaire pour la dur?e de la guerre". They were therefore known as Engag?s volontaires. They would be demobilised as soon as that particular war was declared to be over.

Considering the fact that a lot of men who were called up would rather not have been, joining when you did not have to was considered to be very patriotic and brave. Something special, in other words.

It took several years after 1918 before any official medallic recognition of their participation was offered to French veterans of the Great War.

And a number of "privately made medals" became available because of the strong feeling most of the Engag?s volontaires had that something of the kind was due to them. And to make such a "distinction" more attractive a ribbon was devised, the exact reverse of the higly respecable M?daille militaire, green with orange-yellow borders.

When the french Commemorative medal was finally decided upon and made available, it was decided that all Engag?s volontaire would be entitled to a bar with ENGAGE VOLONTAIRE

The same thing happened for 1939-1945, with the same bar on the Commemorative medal for WW2.

And that was the official end of it. Foreigh volonteers in the Foreign Legion for the duration of the war were entitled to the bar. But men who had joined previously or had signed a "regular" five years contract were not.

The "Croix des combattants volontaires" on the other hand is a respected award going to Engag?s volontaires pour la dur?e de la guerre" who also had been awarded the Croix du Combattant. Holds true for 1939-1945. Indochina and Korea.

I sincerely hope this does not sound too muddled.

Greetings

V?t?ran

Mais non, mon cher Paul, comment est-ce qu'il y aurait la moindre confusion? It's not at all muddled. No sir! It's just we are all a bit muddled...

PK

[Hugh]

PK

Ask and ye shall be given - This is all great stuff, and I'm very grateful! Now that you've posted the miniatures, you've evoked another question: At the recent OMSA convention, I got a miniature Medaille Militaire which is quite a bit smaller than other miniatures. When I showed it to other attendees, they seemed to be aware of that size, but no one told me the reason for the two sizes. I know with miniatures (not struck by the mint), the customs become pretty flexible, but is there an official reason for the different sizes?

Hugh

[PKeating]

I would imagine that the really small ones are intended for medal chains, as worn on suit or blazer lapels, whilst the larger ones are for suspension hangers like the ones above, and would be worn on civilian jackets and coats, military mess dress and that sort of thing. Whatever the case, French miniatures are smaller than British miniatures, which poses a problem for veterans decorated by both countries, as this picture shows. I bought these miniatures for a British WW2 veteran of N? 4 Commando because he was attending a function at the French embassy in London. I put a couple of British miniatures - belonging to a friend - beside them to show the old commando the size before I sent them over. I am told that one or two British firms made some French miniatures during and after WW2 to British dimensions but we couldn't find any.

PK

[Hugh]

I would imagine that the really small ones are intended for medal chains, as worn on suit or blazer lapels, whilst the larger ones are for suspension hangers like the ones above, and would be worn on civilian jackets and coats, military mess dress and that sort of thing. Whatever the case, French miniatures are smaller than British miniatures, which poses a problem for veterans decorated by both countries, as this picture shows. I bought these miniatures for a British WW2 veteran of N? 4 Commando because he was attending a function at the French embassy in London. I put a couple of British miniatures - belonging to a friend - beside them to show the old commando the size before I sent them over. I am told that one or two British firms made some French miniatures during and after WW2 to British dimensions but we couldn't find any.

PK

Thanks once more. I'll keep quiet for a while now.

Hugh

[Guest IMHF]

Does this one have a replaced "fourrag?re"

Thank you

Lorenzo