EK 1939 EKI for consideration

[robert pierce]

Hello everyone,

I've just received this EKI and wanted to ask for opinions from the forum members. I've been told it is by an 'unknown' maker. I can see that the pin assembly and numbers differ slightly from the Wiedmann EK, so I feel fairly confident in believing it is no Wiedmann. If anyone has any idea on who the maker might be I would certainly appreciate hearing from you. I hope you enjoy the photos.

Best regards,

Robert

[robert pierce]

the reverse...

[robert pierce]

detailing....

[robert pierce]

Here is where I really had to study hard, comparing both crosses for slight differences. The Wiedmann SB on the right...

[ogfm]

Hi Robert,

a very nice cross...

IMO it is a Wiedmann with a different needle. The little plate under the little catch is missing, but that is no reason to wonder.

The frame and core looks like Wiedmann.

I like this light worn crosses more than the mint pieces. IMO they have more character....

Best wishes,

Oliver

PS: The ?bergr?e from Frank is an very good piece Now you need the little brother of the ?bergr??e-EK or do you have it ?

[robert pierce]

Thank you, Oliver. I still need the smaller UberGrosse. I really like the vintage patina on these crosses as well.

Best regards,

Robert

[ogfm]

Hi Robert,

yes the patina looks very good on these worn pieces.

Ses the 100 mm EK1 and EK2: to find a worn piece with nice patina is more difficult than finding a mint cross.

Most of my crosses, 95%, are in worn condition, only a fiew are mint.

I did a search for the little ?bergr??en EK2, but couldn`t find one. There was one for sale on Mili321, but it seems to be sold now....

Best wishes,

Oliver

[robert pierce]

That's good that it sold, as I'm regrouping after two purchases anyway. I need to do more research on these smaller crosses before actually buying one. I'm on square one with them.

Robert

[Bill Garvy]

From the collection of Chris Boonzaier. . .

[Bill Garvy]

Another example for comparison. . .

[Bill Garvy]

From the reverse. . .

[robert pierce]

Thanks Bill,

Nice example. It seems odd that Wiedmann never marked their EKI's, as they did their EKII's ('19'). Are these crosses posted here early examples of the Wiedmann, or just a variant with different pin asssemblies?

Regards,

Robert

Edited November 17, 2008 by robert pierce

[Bill Garvy]

No, it's my thinking that these last two two examples are from the manufacturer B?rger & Company, Berlin (22).

Edited November 17, 2008 by Bill Garvy

[robert pierce]

Bill,

Though I see the '22' stamp on the first cross's pin, I cannot make a match with the core or frame of my '22'-marked EKII. I am not leaving out the pin stamp. I'm still studying it. And, I appreciate you bringing this piece forward to view. Thank you.

Regards,

Robert

[Bill Garvy]

Compare with the "22" in 2nd Class shown here and let me know what you think. . .

[Bill Garvy]

The "22" in 2nd Class. . .

[Bill Garvy]

From the back. . .

[robert pierce]

Bill, I found out that my EKII frame is rotated 90 degress to the right compared to my EKI. And, my EKII core is a variant with a different core (look at the '3' in 1939), although the frame is the same, and is in the same location (clockwise). Take a look...

BTW, your EKII date looks very convincing next to your EKI.

Regards,

Robert

[robert pierce]

the maker mark...

[ogfm]

Hi Bill, hi Robert,

i`m sorry to say, that in my opinion, theses 22 mm crosses are all post war marked.

There are so many ( i guess 7 or 8) core and frame variants. I can`t imagine, that one manufactor used 7 or more designs in frames and cores.

Best wishes,

Oliver

[robert pierce]

Well, I have no experience with these '22'-marked EKI's. I'm studying the frames of my crosses really hard right now, searching for answers. Thank you both for good study information.

Bill, could you possibly post a close up of the dates in your EKI and EKII, please, with good lighting?

Robert

Edited November 17, 2008 by robert pierce

[ogfm]

Hi Robert,

there are two possibilities about the 22mm crosses, imo:

1: Boerger & Co bought EK2`s (most in standart-design) from other firms and sold them with their maker mark.

2: Someone, after the war, stamped these crosses with 22 to create a new and rare variant

Best wishes,

Oliver

[robert pierce]

Through much study over a 10X loupe and good lighting these are my findings:

1. My Wiedmann SB matches my EKII '19', both frame and core.

2. My Wiedmann SB matches this particular PB (what others call a Wiedmann PB). The frame on the PB is rotated 180 degrees, the core matches perfectly.

3. This particular PB DOES NOT match my '22' EKII, neither core nor frame. At first I thought the frame might, but under a loupe and good lighting I can see it DOES NOT.

I conclude that this PB IS a Wiedmann, and would rule out it being anything other.

Regards,

Robert

[Bill Garvy]

Although you have already reached a decision, I thought I would submit the dates. Here is the "1939" from the "22" marked Iron Cross in 2nd Class. . .

Edited November 18, 2008 by Bill Garvy

[Bill Garvy]

Here is the "1939" from the unmarked Iron Cross in 1st Class. . .