show your Spanish crosses

[Scott]

No, he is not L?tzow. L?tzow was promoted Hauptmann on Nov 1937.

I guess he is Schlichting.

jacques

Thanks.

[Jacques]

display

[Harrier]

No wonder nice Spanish Crosses are so hard to find. Jacques has cornered the market!

Great crosses, Jacques!! :beer:

[Harrier]

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2009/post-2778-1235435389.jpgAnother (small) contribution.

[Harrier]

[Harrier]

[Harrier]

Another note for those who may not have seen the new Adrian Forman book.

This book is fairly controversial and certainly contains statements, and shows photos of some items, which some people (including myself) will have a hard time accepting. This is particularly so in the sections dealing with higher grades of the Knights Cross, where versions of the Oakleaves, Swords and Brilliants (and other grades) not before seen are shown as authentic. Although I may disagree with some things, the truth is that Forman has almost certainly handled more pieces, and interacted with more people actually "present at the creation" of some of these awards, than most (if not all) of us. I truly do not know if he is right or wrong on some of these things.

Regarding Spanish Crosses, he says, repeatedly and definitively, that 1st style eagles (i.e the "drop-tail") can be found on some pieces which are not actual award pieces, but "duplas" or commercial sale versions. Actual award pieces employ the 2nd style ("swoop-tail") eagle.

It is my understanding that Forman's statements regarding these eagles coincide with the beliefs (although I certainly cannot speak for them) of Steve Wolfe and Neil Hardin in the U.S. and Detlev Niemann in Germany. Certainly no one is perfect, and every dealer comes under attack from time to time, but it is interesting to me that people with this degree of experience would share this opinion.

Now, back to the show! Let's see some more Crosses! :D

[Scott]

WOW - amazing crosses gentlemen.

Badge-wise, I suppose it all comes down to what you are comfortable with. The Forman's/Hardin's/Wolfe's of the collecting world can afford to be bold with their collections, and statements regarding them. They could sell original nazi ice cubes to loyal followers based on their names/reputations alone. On the other hand, a small-time, bargain hunting collector like me wants only non-controversial items that won't be difficult to liquidate by my family after I've passed on to the great SOS show in the sky.... :P

[Harrier]

Not a bad attitude at all, Scott! It can never hurt to be very conservative in this hobby.

[Harrier]

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2009/post-2778-1235443379.jpgJacques has inspired me! :beer:

[Harrier]

[Harrier]

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2009/post-2778-1235444219.jpgNot a Spanish Cross, but I couldn't resist tonight! Sorry it's ......

[Scott]

Wow - great stuff Harrier. Consider starting a new thread on your SCW-related collection - I'd like to see more and detailed photos of all of it!

[MasterBo]

Here are mine

[Harrier]

Beautiful! Love the silver w/o swords!

Do you know the maker of the one on the left with the horizontal swastika? These have have always intrigued me as a great variant.

[MasterBo]

Up Left L/13, up right 4, bottom left CEJ, bottom right 900

This one is CEJ

Edited February 24, 2009 by MasterBo

[Harrier]

Thanks! :beer:

[Scott]

Nice group of crosses Master Bo!

:cheers:

[MasterBo]

Nice group of crosses Master Bo!

:cheers:

[Jacques]

Harrier & MasterBo, very nice and quality stuff

Harrier, I'm not confortable with the drop tail eagles crosses, and I expressed my opinion which engage me alone. I'm not an expert as Detlev, Forman or W&H and I don't want to be. Each collector must build his own opinion with our ones all over the various dedicated forums, the available books and collections. I like these discussions where each of us bring something to build the wall, without saying i'm right you're wrong. I'm may be wrong and passed on several good stuff, I just gave few defending points to my opinion, and my mind remains open.

On another way, I'm still looking for a Godet cross. I still not have idenfied one (not saying the diamonds one). Is anyone has an idea ? which one of the unmarked or just "900" stamped crosses were made by Godet ?

jacques

[Harrier]

Jacques,

It would be a very dull world if we all agreed all the time on everything! I very much respect your views and can understand why you feel the way you do. The "down-tail" eagle on these crosses is an enigma. It is simply my feeling that the early production of Crosses was in rushed fashion and that manufacturers were confused by conflicting illustrations and the simple guide in the announcement that the central swastika would be circled by 4 "Luftwaffe eagles with swastika", without specifying the exact form of the eagle. This is especially so as many in the Luftwaffe, both officers and enlisted men, continued to wear (in 1939) the early eagle on a daily basis. With officers (and enlisted personnel in private purchase uniforms) this continued until the end of the war (at least in limited fashion), without any repercussion at all.

There are a multitude of fakes of both down-tail crosses and swoop-tail crosses. What were the fakers copying when they made the first down-tail fake? I personally believe they were copying a real one they had seen.

I hope the day will come when we will truly know all the variations made and who made them.

Regarding Godet, I too would like to know which (non-Brilliants) Cross they made.

Best,

Harrier

[Scott]

Jacques, your search for a Godet cross brings up an interisting point... Why would any company choose not to mark their crosses with their company name/logo? Or, why would a company have a variety of marking schemes, like Juncker for example: "CEJ/900" on some, "900" only on others, and some with no mark at all (L/12 crosses came later for a reason of course). Very curious.

[Harrier]

Scott,

You raise a very interesting point indeed.

We all know that many badges are unmarked. Many unscrupulous people have added false marks to original unmarked badges, believing that marked badges sell better. From time to time, we even see an original badge labelled as a fake because the mark is bad, only to see the badge (sometimes and not always, regretably) redeemed when the people who really study these things realize that the underlying badge matches exactly a type found also in a marked version by an identified manufacturer.

The CEJ issue you raised before is very valid. Why on earth would a company keep using a (supposedly) discontinued mark on one type of badge but not another? Was there really any fixed and hard rule for this or did companies just not pay much attention to the stamps their workers were using, just so long as the name was correct? What rules applied when one company made badges under subcontract to another? Did they use a stamp supplied by the main contractor or did they use a stamp they themselves created which created another, previously unknown, version of the main contractor's identity mark? Many questions, but few answers. Why do we see companies using their PKZ as well as their LDO numbers on the same badge? Why were Knights Crosses still available for private purchase after October 1941 (and we know they were because Hartmann, Glunz and others have related buying pieces at shops after that date)? More than anything, I wish we had really good information from those actually involved in the manufacture process, but very little of this is available anymore. We are scrambling in the dark and it is very frustrating...........

Best,

Harrier

[Jacques]

Hi,

To find GOdet, it could be an idea to look on the "900" stamped crosses. 2 or 3 or these crosses are still categorized into "unknown maker" file. The solution is may be there !

Harald Geissler in is article (IMM) said that there were stamped 900, but he didn't show a pic.

jacques

could this one be a Godet ?

[Jacques]

Or this one could it be a Godet ?