Greece - Help please ID Ribbon bar

[Noor]

Hi,

Its look like Greece to me but can someone confirm it please or help ID the ribbons?

Looks like:

1. Medal of Military Merit

2. 1916-1917 War Cross?

3. Order of the Redeemer?

4. WW1 Commemorative medal

Regards,

Noor

[Guest Rick Research]

Yes, yes, yes, no-- Interallied Victory Medal.

What does the back look like?

There is nothing from the two Balkans wars 1912-13 suggesting he joined AFTER that, but also nothing from WW2 suggesting this cannot be later than DURING the Second war. I've never seen a Greek ribbon bar from this 1920s-40s time period, so would be very interested to see the other side.

[Noor]

I will try to get some time during this weekend (if Thor is so kind and when England-Irish rugby is over) and I will try to make better pictures. But Rick - there is nothing interesting. No plate or pin system, just sew to the uniform.

[Guest Rick Research]

Is the backing inside metal or folded up paper to make it flexible? It looks rigid.

[Nicholas]

The ribbon bar is ok but for some mysterious reason the R.O. of Redeemer ribbon is at a wrong place given it takes precedence before all other awards (apart from the Cross of valour 1912 that we can not see here).

The right order of mounting the ribbons should have been:

1. Royal Order of the Redeemer
2. War Cross
3. Medal of Military Merit and,
4. Interallied Victory Medal.

There should have been more ribbons in this ribbon bar and there aren't any. Redeemer and Military Merit medal were awarded only to officers so one would expect to see more medals in the bar, esp, the ones for the two Balkan wars plus any foreign awards such as the French Croix de Guerre or the Serbian Milosh Obilich medal.

The explanation is simple: a couple of rows are missing! The mounting of the ribbons is typical of the period 1917-1936 where ribbons were in many cases fited not upon a piece of supporting cloth (or fastened upon a metal bar that was introduced quite later during the 1930's) but directly upon the tunic. As you understand that is not very practical as one would have to remove them from the old or damaged tunic to the new one. Military outfitters and taylors always kept spare ribbons from old tunics in a shoe box for possible future use, hence loose an isolated pieces like the one in question.

[RobW]

The ribbon bar is ok but for some mysterious reason the R.O. of Redeemer ribbon is at a wrong place given it takes precedence before all other awards (apart from the Cross of valour 1912 that we can not see here).

There should have been more ribbons in this ribbon bar and there aren't any. Redeemer and Military Merit medal were awarded only to officers so one would expect to see more medals in the bar, esp, the ones for the two Balkan wars plus any foreign awards such as the French Croix de Guerre or the Serbian Milosh Obilich medal.

Hello Nicholas,

If such a Greek group was awarded where would the foreign awards, (French Croix de Guerre or Serbian Milosh Obilich medal) be mounted? Would they go at the end of all the Greek awards and then if so, would a personal valour award like the Milosh Obilich medal come before the French Croix de Guerre, which was also awarded at different Regimental, Corps etc... levels?

Did the Greek military 'court mount' there medals as I have seen some groups so mounted with others the medals were swing mounted.

Regards,

Rob

[Nicholas]

Hello Rob,

You are right, foreign awards are mounted right after the Greek awards, first the orders (by rank, i.e. Knight preceeds officer) and then medals (by date of award). The rationale of the latter seems very reasonable as nobody can really tell if a foreign personal valour award like Milosh Obilitch for example is more important than Croix de Guerre.

Yes, Greek military 'court mount' their medals and as a matter of fact they still do it today. Yet, I must make this clear:

Until 1930's and almost up to WWII, the Greek Army uniforms were heavily influenced by the French model. Officers were wearing "Kepi" hats for example and medals indeed, were swing mounted as you have correctly mentioned, in pretty much the way the French wear them. On the contrary, the Greek Navy uniforms, protocole, etc was definitely British in style since before the Balkan wars (1912-13) as the Navy was organised and modernised by British naval advisors like Sir Lionel Truffnel. Until today, Greek navy uniforms are almost identical to the British ones in every detail (Greek sailors even sport the famous "Nelson's knot").

After WWI and definitely after the monarchy restoration of 1936 when King George II returned to Greece, military uniforms of all services followed closely the British model. This was done for practical purposes as Greece was a close ally of Britain but also because King George II (a relative of the British Royal family) loved the British ways excessively. It was then that court style mounting became obligatory for officers as many of them still used the previous French manner. Warrant Officers, NCO and men were not allowed to use court style but mere mounting their medal from a suspension bar in a simple line (ribbon was not folding behing the medal). After WWII and the subsequent Civil War (1944-1949) Greece passed into the US sphere of influence and Army military uniforms after 1960's gradually followed the US style. Yet Hellenic Air Force and Navy uniforms still follow the British tradition!

I hope this was of assistance.

[RobW]

Hello Rob,

You are right, foreign awards are mounted right after the Greek awards, first the orders (by rank, i.e. Knight preceeds officer) and then medals (by date of award). The rationale of the latter seems very reasonable as nobody can really tell if a foreign personal valour award like Milosh Obilitch for example is more important than Croix de Guerre.

Yes, Greek military 'court mount' their medals and as a matter of fact they still do it today.

After WWI and definitely after the monarchy restoration of 1936 when King George II returned to Greece, military uniforms of all services followed closely the British model. This was done for practical purposes as Greece was a close ally of Britain but also because King George II (a relative of the British Royal family) loved the British ways excessively. It was then that court style mounting became obligatory for officers as many of them still used the previous French manner. Warrant Officers, NCO and men were not allowed to use court style but mere mounting their medal from a suspension bar in a simple line (ribbon was not folding behing the medal).

I hope this was of assistance.

Hello Nicholas,

Yes thanks that was definitely of assistance.

I recently picked up a small 4 group to a Greek officer from the Balkans war (1912-13) with a French Croix de Guerre as well hence the inquiry. All 4 in the group are separate, with very poor and tattered ribbons so I was considering court mounting them with better ribbons to display them as a complete group. Are there any measurements, top to bottom, width etc... I should be aware of??

The next challenge will be to find the appropriate Greek ribbons in good condition in a length long enough for mounting but that is another story!

A picture of a Greek officers group in the Balkans War or Great War period mounted would be of great assistance. What were the backs of the medal group covered with?

Regards,

Rob

[Nicholas]

Hi Rob,

I'm glad that was helpful.

I would like to see please these 4 items. If there is a a French Croix de Guerre it's definitely WWI era. Let me guess... there must be the 2 Balkan war medals there as well. What's the fourth? Would it be the Greek Victory medal or Greek War Cross 1916-17? A Redeemer maybe?

The 1953 Army Uniform Regulation manual mentions that medals are mounted court style upon a rectangular base (made of thin sheet metal or hard cardboard usually) 6cm in height (top to bottom). The overall width of the rectangular base has to do with the number of medals to mount really, but it was never too long. The back of the medal group is covered with some black fabric, usually felt or another similar garment. There was also fastened in the back, either a long horizontal pin or a couple of hooks for mounting on the uniform.

Mind you though, as I have already mentioned, before WWII, officers were most usually wearing their medals in the French manner i.e. hanging from a horizontal suspension bar (made of wire or thin metal stripe) in two or three rows, depending on how many medal they had. Yet you can also find even German style mounted groups as many officers were trained in the German military academy before the Balkan wars.

Please have a look at the picture, I hope it will give you an idea.

Best regards,

Nicholas

[Noor]

Hello,

It is so old threat that I forgot it

Thank you very much for your opinion about that bar Nicholas! Also clarification about the Greece bars is just great to read!

To me the bar looks weird as well because it is almost like new - scan makes it more shiny but still... I belived myself what Rick said - this one can't be good but who knows 100%. Anyway, I got it as a present from other collector, so no money spended for that.

[RobW]

Hi Rob,

I'm glad that was helpful.

I would like to see please these 4 items. If there is a a French Croix de Guerre it's definitely WWI era. Let me guess... there must be the 2 Balkan war medals there as well. What's the fourth? Would it be the Greek Victory medal or Greek War Cross 1916-17? A Redeemer maybe?

Best regards,

Nicholas

Hello Nicholas,

It would appear that I was a bit too quick on the draw. The vendor in question has decided to forgo selling the items for reasons best known to himself. Thus the search continues...

You were correct in the assessment of the group; It comprised both Balkan war medals, the Greek victory medal and a French Croix de Guerre. Thanks for the pics of the gentlemen in uniform as they are good for reference. It does seem that Greek Balkan Wars and Great War groups do not appear that often.

Are there many examples of groups spanning both the Great War (WW1) and then later service in World War 2? It is seen with British Great War groups but I haven't seen that many Greek groups spanning both World Wars.

As far as the Order Of The Redeemer is concerned how regularly was it awarded during the Balkan wars and Great War and was it a rank based award?

Regards,

Rob

Edited January 13, 2010 by RobW

[Nicholas]

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2010/post-6446-126349904701.jpgHello from Athens!

There is a growing domestic interest for Greek awards, new collectors have discovered this fascinating hobby so such groups of the Greek Balkan Wars and Great War are particularly sought after in Greece. Indeed, with all this demand, such groups do not appear that often.

It is important to know that Balkan war medals as such are very common. Yet, bars (and the combination of them) is what makes the difference, pretty much as it happens with many British campaign medals.

Yes, there are examples of groups spanning from Balkan wars, the Great War (WW1) and Greek-Turkish war 1919-1922 (Asia Minor Campaign) to later service in World War 2 and the Greek Civil War. But one should bring in mind that recipients of all these awards must have been very senior officers by 1940-45, hence, these are superb finds if you can get one (see picture)http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2010/post-6446-126349904701.jpg.

The Order Of The Redeemer that was given more or less rather sparingly before 1912-13, was awarded "en masse" to the officers of the Greek Army and Navy right after the (victorious for Greece) end of the Balkan wars and Great War. So many awards were made that eventually, 4th and 3rd class crosses (Officer and Commander crosses) of the order were for obvious reasons manufactured in silver-gilt and not solid gold as they used to be before. Until 1915 when the Order of George I was instituted, this was the only Greek order so it carried all the weight of the Greek award system. Gradually, and with the creation of more orders (such as the Phoenix, Welfare, etc) it was awarded more and more sparingly. Very few were awarded for WW2 and nowadays, small classes are not being awarded at all (although they exist). Only the Grand Cross is beeing awarded to heads of State and the like.

Yes, it is a rank based award as this is an order and not a gallantry award. Officers were promoted to the next rank of the order along with their promotion to the next rank in military hierarchy. Also, please keep in mind that it is not a military but a universal award, open to civilians, civil servants, diplomats Greek and foreign alike.

Best regards,

Nicholas

[RobW]

Hello from Athens!

Yes, there are examples of groups spanning from Balkan wars, the Great War (WW1) and Greek-Turkish war 1919-1922 (Asia Minor Campaign) to later service in World War 2 and the Greek Civil War. But one should bring in mind that recipients of all these awards must have been very senior officers by 1940-45, hence, these are superb finds if you can get one.

Best regards,

Nicholas

Hello Nicholas,

You are indeed right, that is a very nice group.

While my knowledge of Greek medals is not good I have attempted to identify the individual awards in this Navy group. Have I got this correct? I am unsure of no 12 as the image is a bit small.

* Order Of The Redeemer

* Order of King George I

* Order Of The Phoenix

* War Cross 1940

* Royal Navy Campaign Cross

* Medal for Outstanding Acts 1940 (with 2nd award small crown)

* Greek-Turkish War Medal 1912-13

* Greek-Bulgarian War Medal 1913

* Greek Interallied Victory Medal

* Commemorative Medal of the War of 1940-41

* Commemorative Medal of the War of 1941-45

* Unidentified

* French Order of Maritime Merit ??

* French Légion d'honneur

While it is a little off-topic was there ever a campaign medal awarded for the Greek-Turkish war 1919-1922 (Asia Minor Campaign)?

Regards,

Rob

Edited January 15, 2010 by RobW

[Nicholas]

Hi Rob,

Well, no12 is the Navy Medal (Royal issue), 2nd class in silver. This is an important award as the two-class medal is awarded either for services rendered to the Merchant Navy, or more importantly, for saving life at sea!

The rest you've got them right and I'm impressed. My only comment is that The Phoenix is the military division type "with Swords". Since you've done such a good job, please find attached the picture of the man himself, a senior and distinguished naval officer who died in 1978 (b. 1891).

No unfortunately there has never been a campaign medal awarded for the Greek-Turkish war 1919-1922 (Asia Minor Campaign).

The ill-fated campaign ended up in such a disaster for the Greeks of Asia Minor in particular, that no time or appetite was left for gongs.

In Asia Minor Greek and Turkish troops fought a very hard and bloody war but the rest of the world knows very little about it despite the fact that both countries were deeply scarred from this event. Somehow, its a "forgotten war" and only Greeks and Turks know about it (and not that much either, only what schoolbooks say, and afew articles here and there0. That is a shame as extreme acts of gallantry took place from both sides and a military historian or enthusiast would have been fascinated to read some of these stories.

Greeks for this campaign, awarded War Cross 1916-17 and Medal of Military Merit 1916-17 in the initial stages (until 1920) and then the Cross of Valour in Gold (for Officers) and Silver (for all the rest). Only one Commander of the Cross of Valour was conferred upon an individual, the Commander in Chief of the Greek Expeditionary Force in Asia MInor. Yet several Commanders of The Cross of Valour have been awarded to the Flags of Divisions and other Military Formations that distinguished themselves in battle.

Best regards,

Nicholas

[Noor]

Got new ribbon bar today and looks like exact same combination

But the pin system is something very cool! It is one of the heaviest bars, what I have and it is just 4 place one!

1. Medal of Military Merit 1st Class

2. 1916-1917 War Cross 2nd Class

3. Order of the Redeemer

4. WW1 Victory Medal

Did I got the devices correct?

[Noor]

1st class device for Military Merit

(is it post to be palm wreath? )

Edited March 1, 2010 by Noor

[Noor]

2nd class device for 1916-1917 War Cross bronze five-pointed star.

[RobW]

Got new ribbon bar today and looks like exact same combination

But the pin system is something very cool! It is one of the heaviest bars, what I have and it is just 4 place one!

1. Medal of Military Merit 1st Class

2. 1916-1917 War Cross 2nd Class

3. Order of the Redeemer

4. WW1 Victory Medal

Did I got the devices correct?

Hello Noor,

I do have some full size medals with the according ribbon devices, which would correspond with the same ribbon bar devices you have illustrated. Hopefully someone with more knowledge can comment.

Pics to follow.

Regards,

Rob

Edited March 2, 2010 by RobW

[RobW]

Here is the:

War Cross, 2nd class, with second award silvered star

Regards,

Rob

[RobW]

And followed by:

Medal of Military Merit, 3rd class, with bronze wreath. As can be seen in this example much of the bronzing on the wreath has worn off.

Hope they are of use for comparison.

Regards,

Rob

Edited March 2, 2010 by RobW

[Nicholas]

Hi Rob,

These two are very fine pieces. Check the tiny letters on the reverse (at the bottom of the letters), they read "Salonique 1915" and the names of the (French) sculptor and designer.

These are the very first medals to be awarded to Greek and allied troops for WW1 - Salonica Front. There were many variations made by other local or foreign makers afterwards but when you see such pieces, well its the real thing!

Mind you, the medals were also awarded for the Asia Minor Campaign (1919-1922). Yet, at 1921 the war cross was virtually substituted by the Cross of Valour.

IMPORTANT: Despite the fact that the Cross of Valour was established after the Balkan Wars, it was in fact ONLY awarded in Asia Minor Campaign.

All authors of Greek awards got this one wrong. Basically, one started with this wrong assumption and the others just followed that without research. There are two notable exceptions though for the highest Rank of the order: one Commander was awarded to King Constantine himself in 1914 and another one to Admiral Pavlos Kountouriotis a little later at just about the same period of time.

Hi Noor,

Your ribbon bar looks good and like a contemporary piece, but hey, sorry to say, the mounting order is tottaly and utterly wrong:

R.O. of the Redeemer takes absolute precedence over all other awards. War Cross must definitely come next as this is a gallantry award and Military Merit medal is just Merit as the name implies, war merit Ok, but not gallantry in the field of Battle. The only piece in right position is the Victory medal.

There is no way that a Greek military tailor or outfitter must have made this mistake and an officer wearing such a bar would have definitely had some problems with his superiors! If we are to accept that the piece is genuine, we could only assume that it belonged to a foreign national that mounted them for wear abroad. Even so, its a far fetched assumption as the RO of the Redeemer is indeed too stunning to go unnoticed!

Best regards,

Nicholas

[Noor]

Thank you Nicholas!

Oh, if the bar looks fine and issue is just with the combination, then who can be the person who weared it or how common was reglementation mistakes on Greece groups!?!?!

Was there any foreign military advisors or can this ribbon maybe indicate something else, medal to NCOs, etc?

[RobW]

Hi Rob,

These two are very fine pieces. Check the tiny letters on the reverse (at the bottom of the letters), they read "Salonique 1915" and the names of the (French) sculptor and designer.

These are the very first medals to be awarded to Greek and allied troops for WW1 - Salonica Front. There were many variations made by other local or foreign makers afterwards but when you see such pieces, well its the real thing!

Best regards,

Nicholas

Hello Nicholas,

You are correct again. On the reverse of both medals is the marks of:

L.Süe (Sculptor)

A.A.Rivaud (Designer)

Salonique 1917

Pics of the reverse to follow.

Regards,

Rob

[RobW]

Here is the reverse of the War Cross.

[RobW]

And the Medal of Military Merit

Regards,

Rob