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Gentlemen (and Gentle-damsels);

I am studying the Pionier=Offiziere that fought at Gallipoli and am finding some tantilizing relationships. However, as you probably know, there is not a lot of information on German forces there, and also I am running out of relevant research materials, especially compared to the wonderful resources some of the Pals possess. So I will post some findings and questions and see if some of our super-gurus will find this interesting. My own efforts and those of a friend that I cooperate with will hopefully lead to more information on this interesting and difficult to research campaign.

One source states that a "Hauptmann Hildemann" was the commander of the volunteer Pionier=Kompagnie that fought there. This source was knowledgable but wrote about Gallipoli many years later and made some errors. It seems on the basis of many clues that this was a Pionier=Offizier Hildemann, who according to various Ranglisten was an officer of Pionier=Bataillon Nr. 21 of Mainz, which, interestingly, also seems to be the source of other officers that fought at Gallipoli. According to the 1918 preuss. Dienstalterslist he was Leutnant 22. 3. 10 J, and the Patent=datum as Oberleutnant 18. 10. 15 Ss. (It is of course awkward that he only made Oberleutnant three months after he arrived in Turkey!) He survived the war and retired as a Hauptmann a. D.

One clue linking him to other actors is the career of another Hildemann, whose promotion dates were Lt. 9. 4. 77, Oblt. 22. 3. 88, Hptm. 14. 9. 93, Major 13. 9. 99, and Oberstleutnant 10. 4. 06 Dd. In 1911 and 1912 he was in a pioneer staff position working with Oberst Mudra and Gen. d. Inf. Freiherr von der Golz (important decision-makers), and he was a Generalmajor in 1914. There are a variety of links between the two Hildemanns and with other Gallipoli-associated pioneer officers.

Was the elder Hildemann the father or uncle of the younger? Anyone have a clue to the pesky first names?

However, there was another candidate for the CO of the volunteer Pionier=Kompagnie (A major reason I am interested in this stuff is that my father also served in this unit at Gallipoli, but as a Pionier.), as proposed by Klaus Wolf in his Gallipoli 1915, published last year; a Hauptmann Zipper, who actually was a Hauptmann in 1915 (Hptm. 1. 10. 12 H14h and a company commander in the same Pionier=Bataillon Nr. 21). Now, it is quite possible that both officers were the company commander, the area was very unhealthy and the rate of loss of men due to disease was very high; my father got malaria there.

There also seems to have been another Pionier Offizier Zipper, a bit older, who seems to have dissapeared out of my reference materials in the first decade of the century, who seems to have been Leutnant 18. 4. 96, Oberleutnant 15. 9. 04.

Any names for the Zippers? Their relationship; brothers? Any clue locating Zipper or Hildemann in Turkey, and to the puzzle of the dual COs? The younger Zipper seems to have survived the war and ended up a Oberleutnant in the Reichsheer.

I am an abject medicant waving his overturned cap for an informational handout. Any donations gratefully received. The finished info will probably be published in one or two places eventually, casting a bit more light on this interesting but somewhat unknown campaign, especially from the German/Turkish side.

I have engineered getting a major university in the north-west of the US to add Klaus Wolf's Gallipoli 1915 to their collection, so US residents may be able to borrow it via inter-library loan in the US now or very soon. It is in German, but if that does not float your boat there also is a Turkish edition, although I do not know of an example being over here on this side of the Big Pond.

Any help gratefully received.

Bob Lembke

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Sorry. The copy of Klaus Wolf's Gallipoli 1915 is located in the north-east of the US, at the U. of P., so it is easily borrowed through Borrow Direct, which links about 10 important north-eastern universities, as well as through inter-library loan to many more libraries. I consider it an important book and wanted to make it available. I also engineered getting the library to acquire Muehlmann's book on Gallipoli, although it is more readily available already.

Bob

Edited by bob lembke
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Generalleutnant (18.06.15 D) JULIUS AUGUST Hildemann (1858-1926) received the Red Eagle Order 2nd Class with Star and Oakleaves and Crown with Swords (on both--rather complicated) as well as awards from L?beck and W?rttemberg to be found in those upcoming award rolls

Young Pio Bn 21 Hildemann was FRITZ (1889-1975)-- from the army 1920 to police then back into the Wehrmacht. Ultimately Generalleutnant 01.11.43 and recipient of German Cross in Silver.

Zipper was on active duty as an Oberstleutnant in the Reichsheer in 1925, then disappears. He had awards for which the rolls exist from Bavaria and Saxony-- the first not in the published rolls but hopefully to be found in Bernd's massively expanded new Rolls also due out this year I hope. The Saxon roll omits his first name. All he got from the Turks was their War Medal star suggesting either not there long or not in an active post.

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Bob,

I think it's a safe assumption that the Hildemanns were father and son. Bradley (Volume 5, p. 430) gives Fritz's date and place of birth as 18.05.1889 in Friedrichsort b. Kiel. My reseach on Julius' career has him in Friedrichsort from 15.07.87-22.10.89 "zur Fortifikation Dienst i. Friedrichsort v. 1. Ing. Insp." That they were both pionier officers further supports that assumptiion.

Also, Roth's "Verdienstorden and Albrechtsorden 1914-1918 (p. 202) (Band XI Statistische Ausarbeitungen zur Phaleristik Deutschlands) gives Eugen as Zipper's first name.

Andy

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Rick;

A likely scenario is emerging from the mists of time. The (younger) Zipper, a genuine Hauptmann from 30. 9. 14., comes out to Turkey with his company in July 1915 and promptly falls sick. Having only a minor order from the Turks would not jibe if he led the largest German formation fighting at Gallipoli for a long period of time. Possibly he never made it there. I think on first arriving in Turkey he was immediately taken to the Sultan for an audience. I have heard of 140 course state dinners there; perhaps it was too much. Much younger "younger" Hildemann, actually only a Leutnant (Oberleutnant Patent 18. 10. 15. Ss), is appointed the CO of the company, and his promotion follows soon after. But he was known to my source as the "Hauptmann" in the field, at least over 40 years later, when the source briefly described all this.

Rick, to corroborate this, do you know what Turkish decoration(s) Hildemann received, if any? If of higher order than Zipper's order, the above hypothesis is corroborated.

Again, thanks for your assistance.

Bob

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Bob,

I think it's a safe assumption that the Hildemanns were father and son. Bradley (Volume 5, p. 430) gives Fritz's date and place of birth as 18.05.1889 in Friedrichsort b. Kiel. My reseach on Julius' career has him in Friedrichsort from 15.07.87-22.10.89 "zur Fortifikation Dienst i. Friedrichsort v. 1. Ing. Insp." That they were both pionier officers further supports that assumptiion.

Also, Roth's "Verdienstorden and Albrechtsorden 1914-1918 (p. 202) (Band XI Statistische Ausarbeitungen zur Phaleristik Deutschlands) gives Eugen as Zipper's first name.

Andy

Andy! many thanks! Yes, I had noticed that the younger and older Hildemanns were stationed in the same town at at least one time, although they were serving in different detachments, sort of the thing that a general father could probably engineer, but also a general uncle. I am finding that the Pionier=Offiziere at Gallipoli were generally well-connected and mostly knew each other, a sign that suggests that the posting to Turkey was a desired posting, not something wished on your worst enemy.

Thanks for your recent guidance to the book-dealers in Austria and Germany. When I finally got to Nuernberg, that classy dealer was closed (only opens on appointment), but I had already bought so many books that I could not carry more. I almost fell over six times at the Philadelphia airport when I returned.

Pardon my ignorance, what is "Bradley"?

Bob

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Andy! many thanks! Yes, I had noticed that the younger and older Hildemanns were stationed in the same town at at least one time, although they were serving in different detachments, sort of the thing that a general father could probably engineer, but also a general uncle. I am finding that the Pionier=Offiziere at Gallipoli were generally well-connected and mostly knew each other, a sign that suggests that the posting to Turkey was a desired posting, not something wished on your worst enemy.

Thanks for your recent guidance to the book-dealers in Austria and Germany. When I finally got to Nuernberg, that classy dealer was closed (only opens on appointment), but I had already bought so many books that I could not carry more. I almost fell over six times at the Philadelphia airport when I returned.

Pardon my ignorance, what is "Bradley"?

Bob

Bob,

Always glad to help. Bradley is the author (one of many, but listed first) of Biblio Verlags multi-volume (never to be completed???) set detailing the careers of German Generals 1921-1945. That set is part of a broader effort "Deutschlands Generale und Admirale."

Andy

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There is no Prussian listing of Turkish WW1 awards.

German officers detached to "Turkish" (in quotes) service were generally bumped up one grade. So a German Oberleutnant--if officially "resigned" and "attached" to the Turkish forces would have been a kais. osman. Hauptmann rather than a k.pr. Oberleutnant.

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There is no Prussian listing of Turkish WW1 awards.

German officers detached to "Turkish" (in quotes) service were generally bumped up one grade. So a German Oberleutnant--if officially "resigned" and "attached" to the Turkish forces would have been a kais. osman. Hauptmann rather than a k.pr. Oberleutnant.

So I gather that you know that Zipper got a minor Turkish award from it being mentioned somewhere, but that generally there is no single place to easily or even with difficulty look up Turkish awards. I think that Turkish officers visiting Germany sometimes handed out Turkish awards, so that sometimes German officers sported them without having been near Turkey. (Not 100% sure here.) For example, the vaunted Hauptmann Rohr of storm-battalion fame sported a "Gallipoli Star", but as far as I know he never got near Turkey. Possibly it was for training Turkish storm troops in Galicia.

I knew about the upgrade in rank. They could also use the honorific suffix Bey or Pascha, based on their rank; for example Liman von Sanders signed off on his memiors as Marshall Liman von Sanders Pascha years after the war, and others did also. I think he even got his "von Sanders" from his late wife!

Thanks, everyone!

Bob

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