Kriegsmarine Scharnhorst Cap Tally

[Peter BL]

Hi....Not really my field of collecting but would appreciate opinions on this cap tally...

Thanks in advance.....Peter

[Peter BL]

Close-ups

[Peter BL]

one more....thanks

[Gordon Williamson]

Unfortunately these have been very accurately faked. Made, I believe in the UK. I believe at one point you could buy them at the souvenir shop at HMS Belfast, along with modern copies iof the HMS Belfast tally. The problem with the fake Scharnhorst tallies was that they were of the wrong length (way too short) and in the same way as British tallies, the lettering was not centered so that if you laid the tally out there was more "blank" ribbon on one side of the lettering than the other.

A lot of German made fake Scharnhorst tallies have the wrong style of "s" in the word Schlacht s chiff , but these British made pieces had the correct style of lettering and an accurate weave pattern. For that reason a lot of them were I believe, shortened even further to even up the amount of ribbon either side of the lettering and passed of as "cut down" originals.

Impossible to say for sure from the photos of this one. Do you know if it is full length ? If it is, then it has a chance of being good.

Safest ones to buy are examples which are full length with the correct style lettering and in gold wire weave rather than celleon.

[Peter BL]

Hi Gordon...thanks for the reply....the full length of the ribbon is 22 inches with 5 inches of blank ribbon either side.

KR....Peter

[Gordon Williamson]

Hi Peter ,

In that case, I'd give it a miss. I'd never trust a cut down one of this type.

I'd take a cut down example in wire weave as I've never seen a convincing fake of one of these, but with the type you illustrated I'd only ever accept a full length one. (anywhere between 48-58 inches)

[Peter BL]

Thanks Gordon...appreciate the help. BTW...are the originals hard to find

Peter

Edited March 29, 2009 by Peter Baillie

[John R]

Gordon is correct in that the Belfast tally can make you very uncomfortable. I have attached one of them to this post. The ends are different lengths in accordance with the HMS style of cap ribbon and how it was tied, unlike the German which had equal ends.

However, I think you stand a good chance that this is a cotton period example. The problem is that at 55 cm, its value is greatly diminished. I like to see them at 110 and above.

Gordon is also correct in that to be 100% sure, we would need to see it at 110 cms and above vice cut down.

What price is the seller asking?

John

Edited April 1, 2009 by John Robinson

[John R]

Thanks Gordon...appreciate the help. BTW...are the originals hard to find

Peter

It did not used to be that hard to find but now it is. You need to stay on German ebay to find them. Three versions, cotton, cellon and gold wire. John

[John R]

To explain a bit, I am looking at the faint dots on the front of the tally around the letters. This is a characteristic of KM tallies made in cotton. The thread looks like cotton also of course, not cellon and certainly not gold wire. John

[Peter BL]

To explain a bit, I am looking at the faint dots on the front of the tally around the letters. This is a characteristic of KM tallies made in cotton. The thread looks like cotton also of course, not cellon and certainly not gold wire. John

Hi John...thanks for the input....I paid ?120 for the tally on the understanding I could forum it for some opinions, I've already been in touch with the dealer to send it back...so no problem there. I've found a Gold wire example which I think I'll go for.

Problem is I can't compare this one too the Belfast repro.

One other comment on this cap tally is it looks rather new.....

KR..Peter

Edited April 1, 2009 by Peter Baillie

[John R]

The other thing is if the ribbon itself is very light, very delicate. The cellon and wire types have a much stiffer ribbon to support the heavier weight thread.

Sounds like a Belfast to me though at this point.

[MSWilhelmGustloff]

Original photo of the crew onboard I found when I was researching some tallies. Makes you wonder how many you would try to nab if you were the photographer knowing what you know now.

[JBeltram]

Hello,

Here are two reproductions that I purchased from the Belfast in the early 90's. One is the Belfast and the other is the Scharnhorst.

Regards,

Jody