Bronze Stars & Purple Hearts

[The Monkey God]

Hi Guys,

Can anyone tell me whether its common practice to award the Bronze Star & the Purple Heart to the fallen in Iraq?

[Doc]

This is two separate issues-- the PH is pretty much automatic for anyone killed in combat (a few exceptions). The BS is given to those felt deserving, and the two issues are not necessarily connected. Most PH are not associated with a BS, though if the event in which the soldier was wounded/killed was felt to deserve a BS, then he/she would get both. This is much more common now than in previous wars. So, common? No. Possible? Yes. Doc

[The Monkey God]

Thanks for your reply Doc.

So an incident resulting in 3 Purple Hearts, 2 Bronze Stars & 4 ARCOMs, wouldn`t happen everyday then?

[Doc]

I wouldn't think so. This sounds like a small unit action with some good (or heroic) actions. In the current scenarios, there is a tendency to try to recognize exceptional acts, and good communications, aerial observation, and battlefield awareness on the part of the commanders tends to emphasize this. In WW2, such an action would probably not have been directly known to the unit commander until much later (if at all), and thus awards may not have been written up, or may have been overshadowed by other actions, or it may have just been seen as soldiers "doing their jobs". In today's scenario in Afghanistan or Iraq, The commanders can keep a better eye on their troops and their activities, there are more press around, and combat is episodic rather than continuous--- all of these make it more likely that a commander would be aware of such an event and write it up. This has led to many more awards for this type of action than in previous wars (some even complain of "cheapening" of the medals), but it certainly isn't a typical day in paradise. Doc

Edited June 9, 2009 by Doc

[The Monkey God]

Thanks Doc, that was most informative.

I have one more question, if I may.

The incident in question was an IED attack, on a convoy. Would this have also qualified the troops present for CIB/CMB/CAB, or would such awards be issued/awarded, at the end of the tour for participation in the tour in general?

[Doc]

CIB and CMB are NOT "tour" awards. You must have been engaged in ground combat with an armed enemy at a certain unit level. (e.g. Division Staff are not normally eligible), but I have not kept up on the current requirements. I don't know anything about the CAB (I don't even know what it is... The old unofficial "Combat Armor Badge"????).

There are basically three requirements for award of the CIB. The soldier must be an infantryman satisfactorily performing infantry duties, must be assigned to an infantry unit during such time as the unit is engaged in active ground combat, and must actively participate in such ground combat. Campaign or battle credit alone is not sufficient for award of the CIB. (1) A soldier must be an Army infantry or special forces officer (SSI 11 or 18) in the grade of colonel or below, or an Army enlisted soldier or warrant officer with an infantry or special forces MOS, who subsequent to 6 December 1941 has satisfactorily performed duty while assigned or attached as a member of an infantry, ranger or special forces unit of brigade, regimental, or smaller size during any period such unit was engaged in active ground combat.

(2) A recipient must be personally present and under hostile fire

while serving in an assigned infantry or special forces primary duty,

in a unit actively engaged in ground combat with the enemy. The

unit in question can be of any size smaller than brigade.

The CMB requirements are similar. For details, see AR 600-8-22, which is available on the web. Doc

[W McSwiggan]

Doc,

The CAB is the "everyone else award" to recognize performance of duty under fire but not qualifying for CIB or CMB. Also not restricted to rank or unit echelon - note General Petreus wears one and his first combat tour was CG, 101 Abn during OIF.

It is an official award. Actually not that bad an idea as it stops the multiplication of such awards - "Hey whattabout Arty, Armor, Aviation, etc?"

Some have been critical of the design but folk seem to be adjusting.

wem

CIB and CMB are NOT "tour" awards. You must have been engaged in ground combat with an armed enemy at a certain unit level. (e.g. Division Staff are not normally eligible), but I have not kept up on the current requirements. I don't know anything about the CAB (I don't even know what it is... The old unofficial "Combat Armor Badge"????).

There are basically three requirements for award of the CIB. The soldier must be an infantryman satisfactorily performing infantry duties, must be assigned to an infantry unit during such time as the unit is engaged in active ground combat, and must actively participate in such ground combat. Campaign or battle credit alone is not sufficient for award of the CIB. (1) A soldier must be an Army infantry or special forces officer (SSI 11 or 18) in the grade of colonel or below, or an Army enlisted soldier or warrant officer with an infantry or special forces MOS, who subsequent to 6 December 1941 has satisfactorily performed duty while assigned or attached as a member of an infantry, ranger or special forces unit of brigade, regimental, or smaller size during any period such unit was engaged in active ground combat.

(2) A recipient must be personally present and under hostile fire

while serving in an assigned infantry or special forces primary duty,

in a unit actively engaged in ground combat with the enemy. The

unit in question can be of any size smaller than brigade.

The CMB requirements are similar. For details, see AR 600-8-22, which is available on the web. Doc

Edited June 9, 2009 by W McSwiggan

[Doc]

Of course, the "Combat Action Badge"! My mind just couldn't call up the acronym. Thanks. And I dislike the design, but they didn't ask me.

Criteria (from the web): On 2 May 2005, the Chief of Staff, Army approved the creation of the CAB to provide special recognition to Soldiers who personally engage, or are engaged by the enemy.

(1) Intent. The requirements for award of the CAB are Branch and MOS immaterial. Assignment to a Combat Arms unit or a unit organized to conduct close or offensive combat operations, or performing offensive combat operations is not required to qualify for the CAB. However, it is not intended to award all Soldiers who serve in a combat zone or imminent danger area.

(2) Specific eligibility requirements.

(a) May be awarded to any Soldier.

(b) Soldier must be performing assigned duties in an area where hostile fire pay or imminent danger pay is authorized.

© Soldier must be personally present and actively engaging or being engaged by the enemy, and performing satisfactorily in accordance with the prescribed rules of engagement.

(d) Soldier must not be assigned/attached to a unit that would qualify the Soldier for the CIB/CMB. (For example, an 11B assigned to Corps staff is eligible for award of the CAB. However, an 11B assigned to an infantry battalion is not eligible for award of the CAB.)

(3) Other Services and foreign soldiers. May be awarded to members from the other U.S. Armed Forces and foreign soldiers assigned to a U.S. Army unit, provided they meet the above criteria (that is, KATUSAs in 2d ID).

(4) Qualifying periods. Award of the CAB is authorized from 18 September 2001 to a date to be determined. Award for qualifying service in any previous conflict is not authorized.

(5) Subsequent awards.

(a) Only one CAB may be awarded during a qualifying period.

(b) Second and third awards of the CAB for subsequent qualifying periods will be indicated by superimposing one and two stars respectively, centered at the top of the badge between the points of the oak wreath.

Doc

[The Monkey God]

Cheers guys, interesting this whole ethos thing with regards to CIB/CMB/CAB, in days of old where US forces were engaged againest a set piece enemy, it all seemed to be cut and ry. But now with the current circumstances in Iraq & Afghanistan, well maybe not so much Afghanistan as the Taliban seem to be still standing and fighting, but I digress. What I`m trying to say is that a unit could deploy to Iraq, never see an insurgent, but getting to the max day after day, I assume then that none of them would qualify for any of these awards. The reason I make this point, is that I recently read an account of an IED attack, were a guy was awarded a purple heart, on the citation it said, `for wounds recieved in action` but it could be argued that the action lasted less than a few seconds. If they were recieved in action as stated in the citation, it would be interesting to know if he got a CIB? If so did the rest of his squad who were uninjuried get CIBs as well, did the medics who arrived shortly afterwards, treated and evacuated him get CMBs?

[Doc]

Outside my area of knowledge, but from what I understand, being hit with an IED does qualify for PH, but not for CIB, etc. Generally, CIB and CMB require direct contact with the enemy on the ground, not only with his indirect weapons. For example, being hit by artillery fire or from the air does not normally qualify for CIB/CMB. I am sure some have been given after IEDs, but normally that was if the enemy was present and the troops dismounted and fought back against an ambush or attack force. Doc

[The Monkey God]

Outside my area of knowledge, but from what I understand, being hit with an IED does qualify for PH, but not for CIB, etc. Generally, CIB and CMB require direct contact with the enemy on the ground, not only with his indirect weapons. For example, being hit by artillery fire or from the air does not normally qualify for CIB/CMB. I am sure some have been given after IEDs, but normally that was if the enemy was present and the troops dismounted and fought back against an ambush or attack force. Doc

Hi Doc, thanks again for your reply, it makes perfect sense. Given what you`ve said, I can only assume that they would have qualified for CIB, and any medics `might` have got a CMB as well, the DOD report states....

"when an improvised explosive device detonated near their HMMWV during convoy operations. They were also attacked by enemy forces using small arms fire".........

How long however, the contact with the enemy lasted I don`t know.

[Doc]

You're welcome. Doc

[W McSwiggan]

Re: CIB wondering...

If you read the fine print on the Army Web Site relating to the CIB, you will note that it states that specific requirements were established for various conflicts.

I claim no direct knowledge about conflicts other than Vietnam and in that case, my statement is based on recall. What I recall is that not only did the recipient need to be serving in an infantry capacity and of the appropriate rank - he needed a period of time (measured in weeks or months as I recall) to qualify - not simply a single contact.

Now - if a specific number of contacts was required, I do not know.

I do not know if adjustments were made for WIA/KIA in Vietnam.

Cheers guys, interesting this whole ethos thing with regards to CIB/CMB/CAB, in days of old where US forces were engaged againest a set piece enemy, it all seemed to be cut and ry. But now with the current circumstances in Iraq & Afghanistan, well maybe not so much Afghanistan as the Taliban seem to be still standing and fighting, but I digress. What I`m trying to say is that a unit could deploy to Iraq, never see an insurgent, but getting to the max day after day, I assume then that none of them would qualify for any of these awards. The reason I make this point, is that I recently read an account of an IED attack, were a guy was awarded a purple heart, on the citation it said, `for wounds recieved in action` but it could be argued that the action lasted less than a few seconds. If they were recieved in action as stated in the citation, it would be interesting to know if he got a CIB? If so did the rest of his squad who were uninjuried get CIBs as well, did the medics who arrived shortly afterwards, treated and evacuated him get CMBs?

[W McSwiggan]

Extrapolating information posted at the US Army Institute of Heraldry.

?Subsequent to 24 May 1965 (shortly after the deployment of the 173rd Airborne Brigade as the first brigade or higher unit in country) the requirement for at least 30 consecutive days in a combat zone? was established ?provided all other requirements have been met.?

I should add that soldiers assigned to infantry unit positions that would normally qualify for the CIB (Platoon Leaders, Company Commanders, etc) could also be awarded the CIB if "contact" and "in country" requirements were met. This allowed personnel from branches detailed to infantry assignments (with MACV Advisory duty with infantry, airborne units or with US line units) to earn the badge as well. I often thought it strange to see armor officers wearing the CIB but given the small armor "boot print" in country and the many armor types detailed infantry and performed as infantry, to my way of thinking, these awards were perfectly justified.

[Sivart]

The truth is that CIB/CAB awards are given by some commands for riding in a vehicle as part of a patrol in which one vehicle is hit by an IED. Not necessarily the awardees vehicle. The division I was attached to in 2005-2006 had a 'proximity' policy for awarding these badges, i.e. if you were within X number of meters of the blast then you qualify. This also applied to non infantry types who were within X number of meters of indirect fire while on a FOB.

As far as the BS PH posthumous awards, it was much more typical to receive both awards regardless of rank from about 2003 to 2006. My company commander and his enlisted gunner were killed by the same blast in 2006; both received the BS and PH, though the difference in rank and responsibility was vastly different. More recently, our KIA were awarded medals more for their rank than the circumstances of their death, so more ARCOMs than BSs. The whole awards system is BS (no, not Bronze Star this time), it could really use some serious scrutiny.

Sivart

[Sivart]

Extrapolating information posted at the US Army Institute of Heraldry.

"Subsequent to 24 May 1965 (shortly after the deployment of the 173rd Airborne Brigade as the first brigade or higher unit in country) the requirement for at least 30 consecutive days in a combat zone" was established "provided all other requirements have been met."

I should add that soldiers assigned to infantry unit positions that would normally qualify for the CIB (Platoon Leaders, Company Commanders, etc) could also be awarded the CIB if "contact" and "in country" requirements were met. This allowed personnel from branches detailed to infantry assignments (with MACV Advisory duty with infantry, airborne units or with US line units) to earn the badge as well. I often thought it strange to see armor officers wearing the CIB but given the small armor "boot print" in country and the many armor types detailed infantry and performed as infantry, to my way of thinking, these awards were perfectly justified.

I'm not sure if that applies anymore, my current CO is an armor officer. He is eligible for the CIB (other than the fact that he is not an 11A) but he wears the CAB. I will have to ask him if this is a preference thing, but I don't think that it is. I am pretty sure that you have to be in an 11 or 18 series MOS or CMF to be eligible, branch detailed officers don?t change their MOS when they go to a different kind of unit. But I could be wrong, I sure have before!!

Sivart

[The Monkey God]

Hi Sivart,

Both your replies were very interesting!! I had a feeling that the issueing of these awards,might in fact boil down to who you had in charge of you at the time. Like all medals & awards, only the person wearing them knows whether they earned them or not, at the end of the day!! I`m sure you`ll agree.

I`d very much like to hear your opinion of CMB issued to medics who attended post IED, and basically cleared up the mess , would they be entitled or not do you think?

[Sivart]

Medics don't really do post blast cleanup, that is to say that a seperate medical group isn't dispatchd to pick up pieces or anything...... which in no way does or should qualify someone for the CMB. Perhaps being too close to the process has made me a bit of a cynic when it comes to badges and awards and the like...

[The Monkey God]

:cheers: Sivart, again makes sense.

What about the marines, they get a combat ribbon, I believe. What does a Corpsman get?