Kriegsmarine U-Boat Badge Mfg ?

[MR T]

Hello,

Been looking through Torpedo los, and still I cannot identify this badge.

Any help on mfg and originality would be greatly appreciated.

This is currently the only picture I have.

Thanks Paul

[Gordon Williamson]

I don't think anyone has come up with a definite identity for the manufacturer if this type (with the five wing segments). It is also a type that is heavily faked both in solid form and also hollow struck. It can be encountered with a variety of spurious maker marks.

Dick Trostem has done a study of the fakes of this type and if he sees this thread maybe he can elaborate.

[MR T]

I don't think anyone has come up with a definite identity for the manufacturer if this type (with the five wing segments). It is also a type that is heavily faked both in solid form and also hollow struck. It can be encountered with a variety of spurious maker marks.

Dick Trostem has done a study of the fakes of this type and if he sees this thread maybe he can elaborate.

Thank you,

It is from a grouping that I am considering, I will see if I can get some more Pictures.

[RichardT]

Paul, as Gordon indicated I've spent some time looking at these badges with the 5 segmented wings and I'm not much smarter than when I started. I first became aware of them when close to a dozen of them appeared in the collectors market over a period of 2-3 months. They may have been around before that but I was unaware until they suddenly seemed plentiful.

The majority of these badges appear to be made of zinc and have a cut-out swastika. The pin and catch hardware on the majority of them closely resembles accepted Klein & Quenzer hardware as shown in Gordon's book "Torpedo los!" on page 173. This has lead some to think that they may have been manufactured by K&Q. I have however noted one of these badges with a "block" style hinge assembly similar to the Schwerin hinge shown on page 157 in Gordon's book.

The obverse design of the badge is different that that of K&Q with the 5 wing sements, cut-out swastika arms, different deck gun and conning tower designs. I have however seen one 5 segmented wing specimens with a solid (non-cutout) swastika arms. It is worth noting that the badge I viewed with the solid swastika appears to be tombac while all the ones with the cut-out swastikas appear to be made of zinc.

Most of these badges appear to be unmarked although I'm aware one one existing with the number 65 stamped on the pin, indicating K&Q as the manufacturer.

Whether the 5 segmented wing model of badge is original wartime manufacture or a postwar badge is unclear. Numerous possibilities exist including:

1. It is possible that K&Q had a 5 segment wing set of dies that were also used during wartime. If this is in fact the case, then it would be no surprise to see other differences in the badges design, such as the deck gun and conning tower differences and the cut-out swastika.

2. It is possible that these are wartime badges but not manufactured by K&Q, and

3. It is possible that these are not wartime manufactured badges.

To me, it is bothersome that a number of these badges appeared for sale within a period of a couple months and that the reverse hardware and swastika design is not consistent among them. One might think that if the badges were made by a single manufacturer that the reverse side hardware and swastika design might be the same. It should be noted however that the single badge I've seen with the solid swastika appears to have been made of tombac and the ones with the cut-out arms made of zinc. We do know that tombac and zinc badges made by the same manufacturer often had diferent hardware styles and design differences.

As I said, I'm no smarter after studying these badges than before. To me they are unproven as to origin or originality. Personally, I'd much rather spend my hard earned money on a badge without so many questions.

I hope this is of some help.

Dick

[MR T]

Paul, as Gordon indicated I've spent some time looking at these badges with the 5 segmented wings and I'm not much smarter than when I started. I first became aware of them when close to a dozen of them appeared in the collectors market over a period of 2-3 months. They may have been around before that but I was unaware until they suddenly seemed plentiful.

The majority of these badges appear to be made of zinc and have a cut-out swastika. The pin and catch hardware on the majority of them closely resembles accepted Klein & Quenzer hardware as shown in Gordon's book "Torpedo los!" on page 173. This has lead some to think that they may have been manufactured by K&Q. I have however noted one of these badges with a "block" style hinge assembly similar to the Schwerin hinge shown on page 157 in Gordon's book.

The obverse design of the badge is different that that of K&Q with the 5 wing sements, cut-out swastika arms, different deck gun and conning tower designs. I have however seen one 5 segmented wing specimens with a solid (non-cutout) swastika arms. It is worth noting that the badge I viewed with the solid swastika appears to be tombac while all the ones with the cut-out swastikas appear to be made of zinc.

Most of these badges appear to be unmarked although I'm aware one one existing with the number 65 stamped on the pin, indicating K&Q as the manufacturer.

Whether the 5 segmented wing model of badge is original wartime manufacture or a postwar badge is unclear. Numerous possibilities exist including:

1. It is possible that K&Q had a 5 segment wing set of dies that were also used during wartime. If this is in fact the case, then it would be no surprise to see other differences in the badges design, such as the deck gun and conning tower differences and the cut-out swastika.

2. It is possible that these are wartime badges but not manufactured by K&Q, and

3. It is possible that these are not wartime manufactured badges.

To me, it is bothersome that a number of these badges appeared for sale within a period of a couple months and that the reverse hardware and swastika design is not consistent among them. One might think that if the badges were made by a single manufacturer that the reverse side hardware and swastika design might be the same. It should be noted however that the single badge I've seen with the solid swastika appears to have been made of tombac and the ones with the cut-out arms made of zinc. We do know that tombac and zinc badges made by the same manufacturer often had diferent hardware styles and design differences.

As I said, I'm no smarter after studying these badges than before. To me they are unproven as to origin or originality. Personally, I'd much rather spend my hard earned money on a badge without so many questions.

I hope this is of some help.

Dick

Dick Thanks very much for the information,greatly appreciated. I hope to get more pictures in the next couple of days.

I wouldn't go after this badge, except it is part of a desirable group of items.

The dealer (has a good reputation) says the group comes direct from the family (i know they always say that). The dkig document in my other post

is a part of the group, and the real reason I really want the group,is it has a nice tradition badge, which is my most desired u-boat item.

Everything looks good, except the badge is throwing me off.

Anyways I will post more pics.

Thanks very much

Paul

[MR T]

I would just like to add that I appreciate the responses to both my posts.

This is a nice friendly forum, with some real experts. Makes the hobby a lot more fun.

Am looking forward to becoming more involved.

Paul